The OK Corral: When Is It OK to Corral Another Mom's Child?
Elena from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, writes:
The holidays are just around the corner, and our ward’s family Christmas Party is already planned and scheduled. Last year, we had a stage-struck little five-year-old in my Primary class who grabbed the microphone during the Young Women's and Young Men’s nativity presentation, and yelled into it to see if it was working. It was.
His mom was nursing her baby on the other side of the room, and trying to manage her toddler with her free hand.
When our kindergartener made his second attempt to holler into the live mike, I scooped him up, pried the microphone from his eager grasp, and bundled him, shrieking and kicking in protest, out into the hallway.
His mom visited me the following day to do some protesting of her own. She was enraged that I would create such a negative, humiliating experience for her son when her goal had been to bring the kids into a happy environment where they could frolic with their friends and participate in a celebration of the birth of the Savior.
Her kids are lively little cherubs, and the sugar they receive at the Christmas party doesn’t help. By my lights, there wasn’t much choice. Maybe an occasional “Moo” or “Baaaa” wouldn’t have hurt the St. Luke Christmas story too much, but electronically amplified wails didn’t seem to enhance the mood. We’re always instructing our Primary kids that they can’t play with our microphone because it is too delicate. It is not a toy, and it’s too expensive. This felt to me like a necessary intervention, but the mom saw it otherwise.
I have been following the conversation about teaching and requiring modest attire, and I have heard both sides. Some parents feel their kids are being alienated by corrective feedback, and others feel the kids need a much firmer hand from teachers and leaders. Sisters, what is our code of conduct? I am already listening nervously for those sleigh bells, knowing perfectly well that there’s lots more sugar on its way.
Jeannie says:
Ouch! I feel for both of you! You were in charge and Mom was overreacting to the embarrassment of your having to take charge of her child. Let’s look at the issue of correction, no matter what the age, and consider a few aspects before we arbitrarily ‘yea’ or ‘nay’ non-familial interference.
Is the situation acutely disruptive or dangerous?
Is there a parent out there who would not appreciate an extra pair of hands if her child were in danger or endangering the welfare of someone else? I’m sure not going to look around for Mom if 3-year-old Johnny is about ready to clonk Tommy over the head with the nearest blunt object. No brainer. As far as I’m concerned, situations involving imminent danger or destruction of property are everybody’s business.
As for our disruptive glucose guy; he absolutely needed to be “reined-in” at some point. “When” and “how” become the questions. Because Mom was preoccupied or unwilling and the child was below the age of accountability, someone had to take charge or point-blank ask her to retrieve him. Otherwise, the whole program would have suffered. It would not have been fair to those who put in so much preparation to have had the evening sabotaged by the antics of a sugar-charged child. However (we learned this when my husband was bishop of an international ward), in certain cultures, behavioral expectations are different from ours. This means that prior to many events requiring an attentive audience, it was necessary to “spell out” acceptable etiquette. By doing so, misunderstandings or hurt feelings could be eliminated if the situation warranted corrective measures from a non-relative.
Correction for chronic disruption in the classroom or social events is a matter for the leader(s), parents, and bishop. It should be age-appropriate and in my opinion, a process born of love and negotiation. In my 30+ years of teaching all ages, I have without exception, never seen an “in your face” confrontational approach produce long-term positive results with adolescents or teenagers.
Exactly what is our stewardship?
Defining the parameters of responsibility in terms of the stewardship the Lord has given us helps to open our mouths or to bite our tongues as each situation dictates. Most of us have known a brother or sister who just has to put in his/her two cents every chance possible. In case you can’t tell from the last trillion articles I’ve written…this is one of my pet peeves!!! OK, I admit I’m hypersensitive to this issue because of a sister in the ward where I was raised. Her incessant finger-wagging was a source of hurt and embarrassment to every youth not meeting her standard of behavior or dress. The injury she caused was, in some cases, irreparable. On the other hand, loving correction (actually, I prefer “re-direction”) from someone to whom the Lord has given authoritative stewardship, is expected and can work miracles. Any parent who would take issue with this approach does not understand the concept of righteous stewardship.
“My child would never do such a thing…”
As mentioned before, I was a classroom teacher. If a child was consistently misbehaving or failing, it was my policy to send a note home with the parent-teacher conference invitation. On one occasion, a parent came to our meeting sporting invisible boxing gloves. I had also invited the child to be present so that discussion and negotiation would involve all concerned parties. After a few seconds, it became very evident that this child had completely convinced her parent that I was a warty witch, bent on her scholastic destruction. I am a pretty thorough record keeper and as paper testimony after testimony was produced, there was nothing else for this child to do but admit her wrongdoing and negotiate restitution. I relate this story because as Young Women president, I encountered this problem, as well. If we are moved by the Spirit to re-direct, there are times when our good intentions (like yours, Elena) could be met with parental opposition or denial. In situations where self-destructive behavior is involved (drugs, etc.), the bishop needs to be part or sole mediator in the corrective process. Some situations call for more than one witness to open eyes or impress the gravity of the problem on the parents. To disengage from our stewardship in such situations because we are not members of the family, is cowardly. If it were my child and others knew of his/her problem and chose not to say anything because it was “uncomfortable,” it would be very difficult for me ever to trust them again.
Search, Ponder, and Pray
Provided we do not have to make a split-second decision, it would be well to make this motto our "code of conduct" before taking corrective measures with anyone. We need to search our souls and ask the well-worn questions: “Is it necessary?” “Is it kind?” “Am I reacting out of hurt, anger or vengeance?”
Then, to avoid any knee-jerk reaction, it would be well to ponder the results we would like to achieve with the question: “What would the Lord have me do to promote positive re-direction?”
Again, if the problem is not acute (requiring immediate attention), pray before, during, and after any situation that could be potentially volatile. Ask for permission from the person receiving re-directive instruction to pray together.
One last thing, Elena, reading your question, it became very apparent to me that you have a terrific sense of humor. This is indispensable when dealing with youth and can avert many a disciplinary issue. Maybe if we say “pretty please,” Santa will visit your ward with some good humor or glue guns or geese a’ laying…anything but glucose this year.
Kathy says:
First, I would have to say “guilty as charged,” if anyone were to ask me if I had ever whisked a child out of the room during a presentation, against his will. In fact, under oath I would have to confess the child wasn’t always, technically, mine. If the prosecutor were really good, I might even have to squirm in my seat a little bit and admit that I didn’t always feel terrific about the way I handled it, once I got home and the dust had settled. Like you, I have been the beneficiary of a couple of direct hits regarding differences of opinion, through the years. It is pretty unsettling, and at the time I felt assaulted if not literally battered. (On a couple of those occasions, I was completely wrong, and would have behaved differently if I had it to do over.) It sounds as if you tried to be a good sport about it, and the mom allowed her testimony and common sense to prevail, to the credit of you both.
It would be fun to think about codifying corrective feedback. We could try a few general qualifiers and see if they seem to make sense for MOST of the anticipated differences. Would we all agree to these?
If a parent is in the room and can plainly see the child, hands off. Correction is the parent’s prerogative.
Exceptions:
- Physical harm or “clear and present danger”
- Parent is temporarily incapacitated—i.e. saying the prayer or leading the singing
- Disruptive child is proximal cause of behavior that impacts your own child
- Absolute exception: The Bishop wears the mantle of judgment. He must always intervene when he is prompted to do so, and it is our responsibility and privilege to sustain him.
When I first thought about a code of conduct, I thought in terms of that which has already been set forth for us, 1 Corinthians 13:8. “Charity never faileth.” Fortunately, the Apostle Paul was a thorough and persuasive teacher. He spelled it out quite clearly in the verses that precede our motto. He says he means, by that, to suffer long and be kind. He cautioned us against some negatives: A charitable person doesn’t behave in an unseemly fashion. Don’t you love it? It is a convenient description of many of the things we are all striving to overcome as we mature and progress in the gospel. Hard to define, but we sure know “unseemly behavior” when we see it.
“Is not easily provoked.” Elena, I think you have shown us a laudatory example of this quality today. I think I would have sounded a lot more peeved than you did. Nobody enjoys being dressed down. The scolding you received as a result of your split-second decision to separate the tot from the microphone before the “second act” of his one-tyke show couldn’t have felt good. Isn’t it interesting that the mom was probably thinking you were far too easily provoked and should have been OK with a bit of bedlam at a family party? When we, as ward members who value our cohesiveness, can come to terms with these sorts of differences, I think we show a special brand of humility and submissiveness to our Father’s will. My hat is off to both of you sisters for not turning this into an “unseemly” squabble. It sounds like it got out of control at first, but everybody grew from the experience. That’s pretty human AND divine, I think. That’s what Paul was trying to teach us, as he coached and mentored his new converts when Christianity itself was new on the earth and as vulnerable as a five-year-old. I bet teachers, leaders, parents, pre-schoolers and teenagers were sometimes at odds even back in Paul and Timothy’s era.
“Beareth all things.” Wow. All things? Even a rampaging tot? How about an under-dressed (or undressed) teenager? I’m not sure. This is definitely subject to interpretation. The rest is part of our 13th Article of Faith, and we know it by heart.
Elena, as you think about your question in relation to the Relief Society Motto, does it clarify anything for you? I have found, through the years, that I often see things very, very differently when I try to align my attitude and behavior with these verses. Our motto is our code of conduct, all right—but it’s not as easy as it sounds. Thanks for reminding me to read it again!
Alison says:
Many years ago I sat in the choir seats of our chapel, practicing with the ward choir for an upcoming Christmas fireside. I was on the front row (where the bishopric usually sits) and our director, well over six feet tall, stood directly to my right in the empty space between that row of seats and the second set of front row seats (where the speakers usually sit). His height, combined with his position made it impossible to actually watch him while still seeing my music, even with all the contortions and neck craning I was involved in.
When I came back from the nursery, where all the "choir orphans" played while both parents sang, after checking on my children, I determined to sit with the second row of altos where I had a chance of seeing the director. One of the altos (by whom I had been seated) happened to look up as I approached the stand and with my head I motioned up to where I was moving. She decided it was a good idea and followed.
A week later I heard—through our ward's very thorough grapevine—that another women who was sitting on the front row, I'll call her Sister Watson, was so offended that I had "refused to sit" by her, that she was leaving the church. At first I had no idea what incident was even being referred to but finally figured it must be the seat change incident.
I phoned Sister Watson and said, "Kelly, I am very sorry your feelings were hurt. I did not move to get away from you. I moved so that I could see Brother Jones." I proceeded to explain the entire story.
When I was done, she responded. "It's all right. Don't worry. I have already forgiven you."
I held the phone dumbfounded. Had I not been clear? Again, I explained what had happened and that I had changed seats in order to see the conductor. Again, she assured me that I had been "forgiven." My, how Christian of her.
I wanted to bang my head on my desk. What sin had I committed? Had I neglected to get her permission to move? Had I neglected to outline my motives and intentions fully enough before I acted? Wahhhhh!
"And I've decided," she then continued, "that I will still come to church…although it will be a very long time before I will be able to sing in any choir again."
After I hung up the phone, I sat for a few minutes in a stupor. Then I remembered that this same woman had been "driven from the church" twice before in my short tenure in the ward. Both of those threatened inactivities were due to the fact that her daughter had been "abused" by two different Primary teachers. The "abuse" consisted of a teacher reaching over to her daughter, tapping her on the shoulder, and asking her to be reverent—both done in Primary sharing time with a room full of witnesses.
Then I recalled the incident (again in the full view of the entire Primary) when my husband repeatedly asked a boy in his class to stop making rude comments about and throwing things at someone who was practicing a special part for a Primary musical performance. When his requests were ignored, he finally took the boy outside the room and told him he could not go back in until the performance was over. Later the boy’s mother accused my husband of "abusing his priesthood" and threatened to leave the church. The Primary president ran to my distraught husband, confided to him that this same woman had accused each of her son's teachers of being "abusive," and said that she watched the whole thing and that his response was completely appropriate. She said the only thing she would have done differently would have been to take him out with fewer warnings.
I have seen other couples take their entire families into inactivity because precious little Brewster was asked to show some semblance of respect, a woman leave the church because someone wasn't as nice as she might have been, a couple leave because they didn't think the callings offered to them were up to their high standard, and many leave because the bishop actually insisted on following the handbook.
Over the years I have come to the conclusion that no one is ever "driven out of the church." But we sometimes look pretty hard to find a reason or a person to blame for our laziness and/or lack of commitment.
In any event, I've learned that part of life is learning to live amongst insanity.
I have also come to the conclusion that there are two parts to the sensitivity quotient.
- When we act, we must behave with the greatest care and love. Everyone is growing at her own rate and sometimes people need more sensitivity than is commonly required.
- When we receive the actions of others we must do so with the thickest of skins and giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Life is just too short to "leave the church" every ten minutes or so because we don't get our own way.
How does this relate to your question? I grew up in a time when parents welcomed and expected the intervention of other parents in their absence. If I ran down the hall at church, any adult who saw me would stop me and give me bit of a scolding. And my parents would have thanked them. There was a commonality of values and standards that everyone was willing to uphold.
Today, parents differ markedly in how they deal with misbehavior (just read the modesty discussion!) and many are truly offended when someone dares to insert herself into the role of disciplinarian. Many are so hypersensitive to others themselves that they are nearly certain to jump on the slightest perceived infraction against them or their children.
So what do we do when a child is being disrespectful and disruptive? Use caution. Act carefully. And when you do so, realize that the parents may not like it and be ready to explain exactly what happened and why. And, better yet, have witnesses.
I hasten to add that this climate is one that can absolutely foster nastiness in children. When they know that mommy and daddy will defend any and all behaviors, they tend to exhibit any and all behaviors. But leaders can still set a standard, if they have the stomach for it.
Once while serving as Primary chorister, I had two older boys who absolutely refused to sing. While not terribly uncommon, I found the behavior to be rude and probably worthy of some discussion. But I had bigger problems as most Primary teachers did not attend sharing time and the Primary presidency was generally in the hall during the entire music period, so I was left to my own devices, not only to teach and direct all the songs, but to make sure that the children were reverent and in their seats and not throwing unidentifiable objects at each other.
The final straw with the two non-singers came after a number of weeks—and much kind encouragement and a couple of private discussions—when they began to harass and mock other children (particularly other boys) who were singing. It was then I told the two (privately) that during singing time they would need to step into the hall and wait. They did not want to sing and would not refrain from disrupting and so I would not allow them to take away the opportunity to sing from all the other children. I also told them they would be missed and were welcome to come back when they could be respectful and participate in a polite way.
When I told one Primary counselor (after she emerged from the hall) what I had said, she was appalled and said that under no circumstances could I ask them to stand in the hall. I told her that was fine, but that under no circumstances could I continue to try to teach so many children to sing with no leadership support and no options open to me to remedy the situation. She reconsidered, the boys stood in the hall and, two or three weeks later, they decided they wouldn't mind singing so much after all—and never again did they present a problem during song practice.
As members of the church, we need to display a pretty high level of tolerance for people and their differences and finger-wagging is simply not Christlike. Most of the complaining I have ever heard about ward members (children included) has been nothing more than gossip and meddling. But there are times when the behavior of the few is truly damaging to the many and I, for one, appreciate it when someone is willing to make gentle, loving correction. If the ward leadership is supportive of upholding behavioral standards, I have never seen it become a serious problem.
James writes:
I found these comments to be very interesting to me as an adult (age 50), new convert (two years) and parent of four children, all now grown.
I believe this entire issue is not one of corraling another's child but one of the failure of the parent to understand that they have a responsibility to teach respect for others to their children. I would ask this sister who was offended by the corralling of her child if she allowed her child to exhibit this type of behavior at any other public gathering? Would she allow her child to run up on the stage at a movie? Would she allow her child to run up on the stage and disrupt any other public ceremony such as a graduation? A marriage service? If this is the type of behavior she is encouraging or at least not curtailing in her child, how or why should she ever expect her child to be able to sit still and listen in a school setting? These events are certainly just as deserving of her controlling her child as the church-sponsored event.
Parents will routinely sit [in Sacrament meeting] with screaming toddlers, and then it seems that one screamer begets another and soon the message that the speaker is attempting to share is inaudible even with the electronic amplification. Additionally, toddlers routinely run up and down the aisles and even onto the stand during the service. This is repeated every week. The Bishop gave a talk about reverence about a year ago and there was a one-week improvement in the ward, but then all was back to "normal." Everyone talks about this problem but it seems that no one has the nerve to risk offending some parents by speaking clearly to them. They say, “Oh well. We will just have to get our lessons in the classes and quorum meetings.” Therefore, the result is that a congregation of 250 souls is being denied the messages that the speakers have worked hard to present so that about 4-6 families can have their version of "discipline and respect."
I have heard all of the arguments for long-suffering and the acceptance of other's methods of discipline or lack thereof. I believe many of these arguments are simply rationalization by the parents of an unwillingness to appropriately teach respect and reverence. In support of my theory I have noted that some of the same families attend public (non-church related) events with their children such as movies and concerts. At these events, there is no lingering in the theater by the parent when the child begins to act out. Rather, the parent immediately removes the child to the lobby. Could it be that the parent is more concerned about offending the general public in a movie than they are in teaching respect and reverence in the Lord's house?
I am not asking that the children be separated from the congregation as was done in all the other churches I have attended. Separating does not teach respect either. I am asking that parents recognize the responsibility they have and, by whatever means, instill the understanding that in the Lord's house, when someone is speaking on the stand. They are sharing a message that is to be listened to with at least the same respect as they would give to a movie.
Alison says:
James, I give a hearty amen to you!
I think we would all agree that the root of the problem is parental failure on some level. But, as with the modesty issue, "the rest of us" wonder when/if it is acceptable to intervene when the parents are unwilling/unable to do so. We cannot force all parents to be responsible or capable. What do we do when they refuse accountability?
On the other hand, I think some wards have an underlying problem. My current ward has been dealing for some time with a behavioral problem in the Young Women organization. The leaders (I'm one myself!) have tried multiple methods and approaches and venues to correct the problem—but there is a significant resistance to involve the parents (or even let them know what is going on). To be honest, I have not discussed this with the other leaders—because it just occurred to me yesterday how the dynamic has been working—so there may be a reason in my ward for doing this that I am not aware of. But, in general, I think we need to involve parents in supporting the standards that we expect.
Of course, parents should be aware of how a child behaves much of the time. But when the child is in Primary, Sunday School, Young Women, Young Men, Scouting, etc., the parents must depend on feedback from the leaders. They can't help (or be held responsible!) if no one informs them. Personally speaking, if my own children were displaying inappropriate behavior, I would want to know so that I could reinforce what appropriate behavior should be.
Mary from San Clemente, California, writes:
I don't think this question necessarily is limited to children at LDS functions, meetings, etc. Where is the thin line between “coming to the rescue" and being a "busybody"? The question can also be applied to older children, one child's behavior toward another (at my swim lessons for example there always seems to be one child who is "rowdy" and aggressive who dunks and splashes and frightens other children. Should the threatened child's parent intervene or turn it over to me, the teacher? How can I most effectively and tactfully intervene?) Of course, teachers and health care providers and some others are required by law to report any suspected physical abuse to the authorities. But, even this is overstepped by overzealous "do gooders." And, what about emotional abuse of children and/or spouse? People are very sensitive and "touchy" about their parenting skill, their children’s behavior and their private personal family life relationships—in or out of the Church environment. There is a very thin line between being helpful and being a busybody. How does one "help" in a Christlike way in or out of a Church setting and environment?
Kathy says:
Mary, those are core questions, worthy of a philosopher or social scientist far better trained than I. My criterion is always, “Will it help?” Often I don’t think so. One of my friends is a court-appointed psychologist who points out that no amount of professional intervention can teach some people that they are harming others and need to stop. They just won’t own it and don’t care. If you correct an abusive parent in public, he or she will only become defensive, and will be likely to take out the anger on the child. Grieving family members of domestic violence victims will tell you a court order is only a piece of paper. It won’t stop a bullet. What can society do? What should LDS neighbors do?
I don’t know. We only know we need to follow the commandments, follow the prophet and do our best to love, serve and obey. We will never know if it helped, in most cases. We know the gospel message changes lives. Let’s put our confidence in that, and remember to pray for all the victims of the crimes we can’t prevent, and the perpetrators who will suffer according to the final judgment.
As for rowdy kids, sounds like the jury is in. Make them knock it off. But try to be helpful rather than confrontational. I think I would expect a swimming instructor to take a very hard line against a bully dunking another child. I would yank my kid out of the pool and out of the class if he or she were the dunkee; but I don’t think I would complain to the instructor or to the parent. I’d just find another class. We don’t have the option of jumping ship at church, though. We have to stand our ground and work it out. Sister Palmer, below, has the right idea.
Sister Palmer writes:
I am the parent of four adopted children and almost twenty foster children who have attended church as a new experience. I often wish that ward members who saw my children struggling with inappropriate behavior would lovingly remind them of how we are expected to behave. "Wow, boys, you're in a hurry. You know we don't run in the church though." "We sure wish you would go to class: we know that's where your Heavenly Father wants you." "Oh, you must not know how that sounds, since I know you wouldn't saying anything so unkind." "Don't you think it's time to let so and so play with the basketball?" etc. As my children have struggled with learning appropriate standards, they have often believed that we were not teaching the Lord's standards, but ours, merely because no one else at Church appeared to expect the same standard of conduct that we do.
Jaro writes:
While all the responses were excellent, I agree with Alison. Tempered with love and kindness, children should be taken out, gently, firmly, quietly, when they are over-disruptive. I raised eleven children who all learned to behave in church, thanks in part to loving teachers, leaders, and ward members.
CL writes:
I enjoyed reading this article on noisy children. I can empathize, although in another way. Since I have not been blessed with children of my own, all my family live very far away (non-members), and I work long hours to support myself as I live alone. I look forward to joining the companionship of my ward family on the few Sundays that I can attend.
We have a large ward with many young children. Unfortunately, inexperienced parents as well—or should I say, parents who do not exemplify good manners. Many of these fine folks grew up in the LDS environment where it is normal to bring babies into the chapel for services. I, and others like me, did not. It has been very difficult to get accustomed to the noise level in sacrament, and I don't think we should have to.
I struggle with my attention span, while a little tot is banging on the folding chair behind me, screaming over spilled cheerios on the floor, or the numerous trips by children of all ages to the "restroom or drinking fountain" which actually becomes a social activity in the foyer. (How do the school-age kids make it through each school day without their every 30 minute restroom breaks?)
Parents, I humbly plead with you. There are some of us out here whose only chance for Mormon companionship is on Sundays. That sacred time for us is affected when the children are not taken out as they become fussy. I love children as much as anyone—wish I had my own. But it disrupts the sacredness of the service for me. I was always taught that the chapel should be respected like we would the Temple. Is it appropriate for children to be fed in the chapel? Can the parents (preferably fathers) remove the crying child to the hallway away from the chapel doors, not just to the side or rear of the chapel? All I'm asking for is a one-hour session.
My non-member mother and father were able to attend Church with me only once before they passed away. Mom remarked, "What did the speakers say? I couldn't understand a word because of all the noise." I was hurt and embarrassed. We know this is Christ's true and living Church. Can we set a good example to each other, our young children, and visitors?
Please. Let's make a change. This seems to be universal in all the wards I've visited in (in several states), except President Hinckley's and President Faust's wards. The fathers take the children out, and promptly. Let's show each other the same respect we'd show our General Authorities if they lived in our wards.
Alison says:
Sister CL, I empathize and to a great extent I agree, but let me present another side to the issue you may not have thought of—just as many parents may not have realized your great need for your once-per-week interaction with other members in a spiritual setting.
I, too, have sat through meetings with wailing children who remained—inappropriately, I have felt—in the chapel. I have sat in front of or behind children with clanking toys, windup cars, and all sorts of noisy devices that should have been left at home. I have followed my parents hard, fast rule that anyone securely potty trained must bathroom before—not during—sacrament meeting, and that the only excuse for leaving the chapel was blood.
But I must tell you, the chapel is not the temple—and there is a reason that the church stopped putting "cry rooms" into chapels years ago, and that they have never provided a nursery for youngsters during this meeting. Sacrament Meeting is a sacred meeting, but it is a sacred family meeting.
I have tried to do my part. We determined to be consistent in our discipline. If an infant cannot be quieted very quickly, they are taken out where they will not disturb others. If a toddler is disruptive, they are removed and required to follow the Grandma and Grandpa Moore method of Chapel Removal Torture. This line of thinking says that if a child is old enough to go to nursery—and has the luxury of playing for two hours with only an hour of required reverence—they can learn to make it through Sacrament Meeting without experiencing spontaneous combustion. If they are reverent in the chapel they may draw, look at a book, or use any of the items in the "Quiet Bag." But if they are noisy they will be removed and forced to sit perfectly still in the foyer with nothing to hear, do, or see. In other words, being reverent is much more interesting.
But I found taking my child to the foyer did no good. While my child may have to sit still, it was still more interesting to watch 15 kids playing tag and a dozen adults yakking than it was to watch the "dry council" speaker drone on and on at the pulpit. So then I tried an empty classroom. If I could find one that didn't have another ward in it, it usually had a couple of loose children drawing on the chalkboard or building towers with chairs. More often than not, I ended up sitting in the front seat of the car with my child buckled in her car seat behind me. Unfortunately, my children still found that more comfortable than the pew!
In other words, although I was trying to reinforce appropriate sacrament meeting behavior, often the alternatives still attracted my children.
I have struggled to determine when I absolutely must take a child out—leaving other youngsters unattended, because my husband was in the bishopric or on the high council and was, consequently, nowhere to be found. And, in fact, once, minutes after going out with a newborn one Sunday, my three- and six-year-olds had an absolute, all-out, rolling-on-the-floor brawl…over our "Jesus Book" of all things!!! A scene far more disturbing than the squeaking and wahhhing of my little one.
I have spent more than one hymn (again with my "absentee husband"), directing the congregation with one hand, holding the hymn book with the other, and giving the "evil eye" to my pile of youngsters—who had just come to the freeing realization that they had no authority figure within "grabbing distance."
My husband and I have waited to walk up to the choir seats until the introduction to the piece was being played, only to have the current baby determine that no one on earth but Daddy will do for the next 1.75 minutes. And then endured empty nesters complain at our disrespect for sitting in the congregation during the remainder of the meeting instead of staying in the choir seats.
Having been the mother of one toddler or another for the past 15 years, I can promise you that there are many of us, too, whose only chance for Mormon companionship—in fact any adult companionship—is on Sunday. We stand ourselves on our heads trying to figure some way that we can just make it through the sacrament before we are banished to the foyer with our uncontrollable child. (And, frankly, sometimes Cheerios are the mildest of our attempts.) We stand at the back of the room, hoping that our disturbance is minimal, but that we can still hear just one or two little bits of spiritual enrichment to help us through the next week. All we're asking for is five or ten minutes.
It can be terribly discouraging to spend month after month dressing up, going to church, and walking the halls with a pre-nursery age toddler that other members find intolerable. And we wonder more than once why in the world we bother to go at all. We can chase our children much more easily—and more comfortably—at home.
What I hope will happen is that more of us will be aware of the needs of others. That those of us with children will be mindful of our responsibility to teach and train them, that we will be responsible for their behavior and keep disturbances to a minimum, and realize that others have come to worship God and not to watch our precious Billy mash goldfish crackers into the hymn book holder. And I hope that those currently without children will realize that children are expected in our Sunday meetings, that teaching them appropriate behavior is a long-term project…not a mini-lesson, that worshipping with others requires patience and tolerance and adjustment, and that parents of toddlers are yearning for the same spiritual nourishment that the rest of us are.
May we all be good to each other!
Jan from Blackfoot,Idaho, writes:
I really enjoyed reading the article about discipline and whether it is appropriate. I could see myself years ago as an inactive lifetime member and now. We really do have to love the gospel so much or we could have our feelings hurt on a continual basis. It's part of life and knowing we will not always see things each other’s way. In the beginning of my reactivation (I was newly divorced and in a state of financial distress), my son decided to go to a young men’s dance. His father was very much a cowboy and normal church dress to him was black Wranglers, a pressed white shirt, and a bolo tie. He was sent home from the dance because the dress code established was no denim. Now first understand that I knew what the dress code was. So it was discussed at home and that he may be sent home. He went and was so totally humiliated he has never been back to church. The bad thing is that he would never have been sent home from sacrament meeting and worst of all that’s all we had.
Would the Savior send someone away??? I am in Young Women now and having since been through the temple for my own endowments three years ago, I understand that we need to dress as we are in the house of the Lord. It hurt me more than it hurt my son. He was glad he didn't have to go back to church. We sometimes cut our noses off to spite our faces don't we? I now believe that those things are so trivial and wonder if we administer the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law.
In the beginning of being reactivated, I had situations where moms who brought their children to my home during visiting teaching about drove me bonkers. They would allow children to stand on furniture in my home and treat my home and the church building like a play area. They would not be allowed to do that in the temple would they? Maybe we all go through the season of life where we need to help each other and need to welcome help. I know for me it is tough to feel the spirit when I can hear it, because a child is screaming in a meeting or playing with something in my home that I would rather not have handled-- but I say nothing hoping the mom will corral the child. It is frustrating when they think the child is cute. It is not the person whose home you are in that needs to discipline but the parent of the chil,d and that sister should not have to remove things to make it safe.. The child should be taught elsewhere to respect other people’s property. I heard once that we need to teach our children not to infringe on others’ rights. I am very well aware at the age of 45 that it takes a lifetime for all of us to learn that.
Richard from Nebraska, writes:
Oh, this is a handful…but if charity is a well-developed principle in the ward, brothers and sisters helping out with each other’s children is an expected and common trait. I say, develop those Christ-like attributes first, and these other "detractors from the faith" will be few and far between.
Gail writes:
In the many years I've been actively involved in the church, I've been faced with the attitude that we are supposed to be tolerant and forgiving, which meant that for a whole generation, children were allowed to misbehave in class or at other activities with no attempts at discipline. It was the teacher's responsibility to find ways to engage the child's attention positively or entertain them so that they would be cooperative. Ward parties became literally a free-for-all as children were allowed to run loose in the halls and tear up the decorations and nobody says a word.
Parents need to be more responsible for the behavior of their children because these kids are causing difficulties for someone else. We've been counseled repeatedly by general authorities not to let our children be disruptive in sacrament meeting, but when I stopped a four-year-old girl from running back and forth down the aisles during that meeting, her mother snarled at me as she left the room and another man confronted me in the hall later and accused me of child abuse.
I think this is a subject that periodically needs attention from the pulpit by the bishop so that parents understand that they are responsible to teach their children correct principles for their own benefit (or keep them occupied if they are small) and not allow them to cause problems for other people. But the question is not whether someone should/could intervene when a child is misbehaving, but how they can do so in the best interest of everybody concerned. We don't refer to our ward as a "family" without assuming that we all have an interest in each other.
There is also the issue of safety for children. We assume that the church building is safe to allow our children to roam at will, but these buildings are huge. Some years ago, a child was killed playing unsupervised while parents worked on the grounds outside when she got tangled up in the ropes on the stage. Another small child wandered out of the building and was headed for home when she didn't see her mother. We've also had people come in from the outside looking for a bishop when there were only mothers and children working in the building. All we need is a tragedy of a child being molested or taken to force us to realize that this is not a place to allow small children to wander about unsupervised.
Alison says:
"We don't refer to our ward as a `family’ without assuming that we all have an interest in each other."
Profound. Perhaps we could have this laser-engraved on a huge wooden plaque and mounted in every building!
As for buildings not being safe, tell me about it! Five years ago in Florida, two of my daughters (ages four and seven) went outside the building toward the car ahead of me one afternoon after choir practice. As I finished gathering up my newborn and all her paraphernalia, I heard a scream. Alana, the four-year-old, had been attacked by a pit bull that had escaped from a neighboring home. Belinda ran back to save her little sister and was attacked as well. Alana ended up with many stitches in multiple areas and Belinda ended up with puncture wounds and a citizen's award for bravery from the police department. That was a rather hard way to learn why they should wait for me before leaving the building.
I think our new ward thought we were nutcases when we freaked out after our toddler wandered away from the nursery during his class a few weeks ago. He was found unharmed and happy as a clam, but I know too well that the church building isn't a sure protection.
Kathy says:
It's sad when people mistake permissiveness for "tolerance and forgiveness." There are lines of propriety and respect to be drawn, not only for meetings or social events, but for property and personal safety, as well. You nailed the big question mark with the word "how." Parental responsibility born of the golden rule should be the main focus and as you suggested, could be a subject for a bishop's address.
Thanks for taking the time to write. We appreciate your input.
Oris from Oceanside, California writes:
I once had a child in a Primary class who would speak loudly and often in the combined part of the meeting, thereby somewhat disrupting the meeting. I had often told him to whisper, but he just looked at me like I was not all there. I therefore stopped his mother in the hall and suggested that she practice whispering in their Family Home Evening. She looked at me like I was not all there, and although we had had a very pleasant relationship before I did this, she no longer would speak to me. Unfortunately, I usually have the attitude that if I'm sure that I am right I don't apologize, except to say that I am sorry their feelings were hurt by what I have done. I did not have this opportunity, since she avoided me so carefully. This young man recently left on his mission. I am assuming he has since learned to whisper.
Joan writes:
We are raising seven children and we taught them from the time they were old enough to understand that being in sacrament meeting was special for mom and dad, and if they did not allow us to sit through the meeting, they had the opportunity to sit on a straight back chair at home for the same length of time that we had missed during the meeting. I agree that leaving the chapel should not be a reward for acting up, but a more strict situation.
Oris from Oceanside, California writes:
I know that I probably make too many statements, but wanted to throw this in anyway. I was called to lead the children in music in Primary. I have been there for two Sundays. During this time the other members of the presidency and the teachers have talked almost constantly, and not too quietly, during the music practice and the sharing time, or have noisily left the room. It is so distracting that I have a hard time following what is going on. Last week I became so irritated that I handed the president the songbook and asked her if they would like to sing with us. Then later, during the sharing time I asked them, in a whisper, if the one sister could be more quiet. Aren't you glad you aren't in my ward? If I saw your child running in the halls, I would place my hand on their shoulder and say, “Not inside the chapel." They usually obey until out of my sight. Of course, we do have many brothers and sisters who must use a cane or walker and children running in a building is dangerous for these brothers and sisters. My children are all grown now, but I have always appreciated those who have taken the time and effort to help them learn what is right.
Patrick writes:
A particular sister in our ward seems to always be battling with her two young boys. She has an older son (from a previous marriage) who quite often helps her, and a husband whom (I suspect) works on Sunday. This sister loses her temper with her boys virtually every week, usually resulting in the boys getting dragged out and spanked. I used to watch this every week, and wonder why she couldn't control her children. One Sunday, though, I noticed a friend of mine sit down next to her, and take charge of one of the little boys. You could almost see a wave a relief sweep over this young mother. At that point, I resolved that I could also be of assistance. Now, at some point during Sacrament Meeting, (usually during the rest song), I slip out, find the oldest, and walk him around the building a couple of times. Although that may not necessarily be solving the root of the problem, it is certainly giving this sister a few minutes of respite. Just a thought.
Grace in northern Virginia, writes:
I've enjoyed and have been impressed by the responses thus far regarding irreverent children. There seems to be two distinct themes running in this discussion. One is the lack of training of the children (for whatever reasons) and the other is the involvement of a non-family member in that training. However, both issues are being addressed mostly from a behavior control in the here-and-now perspective, instead of from a behavior-change or -prevention perspective. I have some thoughts to share in this regard, gleaned from my own experience. However, I hope no one construes them as perfection standards that I have reached! Far from it, I fear...
As a mother of six, I have spent my fair share of years with them, solo, while my husband was either on the stand as clerk/counselor, was on stake assignment, or was absent for some other reason. I learned that behavior control in the here-and-now was not a good solution; in fact it was only a stop-gap measure. It worked far better to look at my children's needs and the possible function of their behaviors for them (and not just one of manipulation or plain out bad behavior for attention), and to look at what I could do outside of the church environment to prepare them for more reverent behavior.
Sacrament meeting is not a place to begin such training, but it is a place to require that the training be applied. I didn't have the luxury of taking a child out (who would sit with the rest of the kids?) and sometimes as chorister, I would have to walk up to the stand before every hymn so that my children did not sit alone during the bulk of the meeting.
But I also asked a few, carefully selected sisters in the ward to take initiative whenever they saw my children misbehaving. I knew that these sisters' intents were good, were meant to be helpful, and that their standards of what constituted good behavior were similar to mine. My children learned, then, that they couldn't get away with stuff when I was unable to be at their sides. They also came to recognize that other people really did care about them, and that good behavior is more than what you do to avoid Mom's discipline. By looking at the function of the behaviors, though, I came to realize some important things. First, little children aren't developmentally ready for adult-level reverence. They don't perceive the passage of time as well, they don't track the proceedings of the meetings as well (and certainly can't follow the course of the talks), and the pews can be terribly uncomfortable for short legs. Irreverent behavior, then, can be viewed as an expression of their difficulties with these things and their frustrations about having to face them week after week.
What can be done? From my work with children in and out of the Church who have autism and other developmental delays or disabilities, I've learned the value of picture schedules. Picture schedules give the child a visual representation not only of the current stage of the meeting, but of how much is left to go. There's a picture for every component of the meeting, including ward business, all the hymns, both sacrament prayers, baby blessings, etc. (This also works very well in Primary, both in the general meeting and in class. In my opinion, no nursery or Junior Primary should be without a large-scale picture schedule.) These are arranged in order so that as the meeting progressed, the child would remove the picture of what had just been completed and place it in the bag attached to the picture board or binder. In this way, they learn to track the meeting’s progress, even if they don't understand what is being said. Activities surrounding meeting content for older children who can understand the gist of the talks (drawing pictures, taking short notes, even just noting the scriptures used) can work well, and can be incorporated into the picture schedule binder. The idea is not to keep them busy, but to train them in a positive way to focus in on the meeting.
I have found, though, that photographs shrunk down work much better than do stick drawings or line art. Through experimentation and experience, I've developed a durable product. If you can't create your own and want more information on mine, send a request through the Circle of Sisters.
The other theme, that of non-family involvement, might use some consideration of the function of the behaviors, too. In this, I mean to encourage a thoughtful evaluation of the child's developmental age, family circumstances and even health issues. The child that runs the length of the aisle may have a regulatory disorder, and no amount of external disciplining is going to change that. Running may be his way of gaining some neurological and psychological regulation after sitting in a very stimulating environment for some time. ("Stimulating environment" doesn't have to be boisterous—just being among people can be enough to make it challenging.) Or, he may have a rather worn out mother, who has several little ones to oversee and a sense of failure that your actions may exacerbate—pushing her to lash out in anger.
Whatever the root cause or function of the behavior, again, church is not usually the ideal time and place to try to exert behavior control. You have to earn the right to be within the child's and parent's trust zones, and that can only happen when you have built a history of positive interactions with them, especially and most importantly away from church. When they know you as a friend outside of the church environment, and that you truly love and respect them, they will be much more apt to positively respond to your carefully chosen actions at church.
One final thought. When I can do nothing else, I express gratitude that I can see and hear these children, that they have the ability to move and express their will, and that they have chosen to come to church at all. It means that they and I are physically well and spiritually in tune enough to be there. It isn't always so.
Virginia from Arlington, Virginia, writes:
I am the mother of seven children, now mostly grown. My children contributed their share of noise to our ward's sacrament services over the years. I am now (again), together with my husband, the nursery leader of the Arlington, Virginia Ward. It is the best calling in the church! I know and love those noisy, wiggly youngsters entirely--even in sacrament meeting. I lovingly suggest that those who struggle with understanding and even appreciating the noise in sacrament meeting volunteer to help out in the nursery. There they can work hard to try to teach those little ones to sit still for a five-minute lesson, to raise their hands when they want to speak, to speak in something less than a shriek, and to share willingly with others. These are "learned" skills. Sometimes even adults need to relearn these skills. I attest to the fact that if more adults would be reverent, more children would be reverent.
My husband refuses to have eye contact with the children during the sacrament. He bows his head, folds his arms, and closes his eyes. He concentrates on the sacrament. The children do not interact with him during the sacrament. Instead, they would bother me. It used to bug me. Now I have learned (three teen-age children beside me) that if I do the same, the children will most always be reverent, themselves.
Once, when I had young children and had wrestled my way through another church service, Byron Dixon, member of the Washington D.C. Temple presidency at the time, loving put his hand on my shoulder. He told me his daughter who resided in another state had been called into her bishop's office to discuss a church matter with him. He greeted her at the door with a handshake and a hearty "Isn't the Sabbath wonderful!" She had just endured a long sacrament meeting with her husband off to visit another ward, leaving her to try to keep a large, active, family of youngsters reverent. She greeted his enthusiasm with tears. President Dixon congratulated us for bringing our lively family of five boys and two girls to the same third row pew week after week, and told us he loved to sit behind us. The Dixons bravely sat behind our family of nine week after week for more than twenty years. I believe that his tender acceptance of our family's foibles contributed to them all growing to become reverent church-going adults.
Now that I don't have squirmy, hungry, tired youngsters sitting on my lap, I too notice the noise and wonder how things got somewhat noisy in the Arlington Ward. News Flash--nothing has changed--only my condition. Now it is my turn to be tolerant of youngsters, and to offer helping hands, quiet books, and smiles to tired children and tired parents.
I have offered one simple suggestion to some of the young couples who have asked me how we coped with a large family and the potential for sacrament meeting disruption by our children over the years. Anyone who knows our family can attest to the fact that we weren't always successful. However, sitting in the first five rows and in the same spot week after week makes a powerful statement to your kids. First, it helps both you and them focus on what is in front of them--the bishop, the Aaronic priesthood members, the choir, and the speakers. Second, they don't see all the other kids behind them running in the aisles, going out for drinks, disrupting, playing, and so on. Third, they get to know that pew is their spot. It is the place every Sunday where we expect them to be reverent. We have recently found that "our spot" is frequently overtaken by younger families. That is a good thing. Another good thing is finding a tolerant, older couple sitting behind you week after week to offer encouragement!
Jennifer from American Fork, Utah, writes:
After reading this article on reverence, as well as the article a few weeks ago about Young Women/Young Men and dress standards, I feel compelled to say a few things.
It seems from reading these articles that many people feel if the parents were just doing it right—enforcing rules, teaching standards of behavior, disciplining, etc.—that you'd never see a youth in immodest clothing or hear a screaming child in sacrament or see a toddler dart across the stand.
The truth is that we can teach, we can discipline, we can provide loving guidance, we can enforce rules—but there's one thing we can't do—we can't control our children; we can't force them to obey. We are all instilled with agency—the right to choose for ourselves. No matter how "perfect" our parenting and our discipline, there are times when children are going to choose to act up. To think that if we could just be more perfect with our parenting, then our children would be angels in sacrament meeting is terribly frustrating because we can never reach that ideal—we can never parent perfectly enough to avoid the natural consequences of our children's decisions.
Another thread that seems to be running through many of the replies is this idea that we can judge how well a parent is doing—and even what kind of discipline they are using or not using—by how well their children behave. Whether we say anything or just keep our judgments to ourselves, this is harmful! There are so many factors that can never be accounted for by the person sitting three rows back in the next pew over. How can they ever know everything about the situation—the child's personality, the parents' personalities, what else is going on in the child's life, what other stresses are playing in the parents' lives, etc. etc.—that's only the beginning of the list.
We're not all going to choose the same decibel level as the right time to march our children out to the hall - some parents will whisk their child out at the first peep, while others have to reach screaming proportions before they leave. But who are we to say which choice is the right one for someone else? If I felt that I had to leave the room every time my child made any noise at all, I don't think I'd have the heart to go through the hassle of getting everyone dressed, hair done, fed breakfast, and struggling to the chapel, just to sit out in the lobby the whole time for fear of my children making a peep and disturbing someone else.
I think more tolerance and less judgment is certainly called for. What disrupts the spirit of the meeting more—the sight and sound of disruptive children in the audience, or the anger and judgments in our hearts directed at the parents of those children?
In the past, sacrament meeting has been one of the most stressful hours of my week for this very reason—the stress and fear of what other people are thinking. Did I linger longer than was acceptable before deciding to get my child out of the room, hoping I could calm them down without having to disrupt the meeting further by bumping all the knees of the people next to me to leave? Did I let my child travel too far down the row, hoping I could coax them back without having to make a complete fool of myself before finally running up to get them? Are people angry with me for letting my child disrupt the meeting more than they would have if it was their child? I've been trying to let go of my stress over what people are thinking, but reading this article reminded me just how judgmental people can be.
It just breaks my heart to know that there are people who are sizing my children's antics up to "parental failure." Aren't we all just muddling along the best we can? Yes, some of us are going to err more on the side of strict discipline and some of us more on the side of permissiveness. But can't we all just give each other a break? We've all chosen our parenting style based on thousands of factors and millions of experiences throughout our lives, including the diverse personalities of our children, how we were parented, etc. Who are we to say that the style another has chosen is any better or worse than ours? How can we even know that our style would work better for their children?
I think we have to all just do the best we can with what we have, trying not to offend others, hoping that they won't judge us when we aren't perfect—and in turn, extend them the same right to do the best they can, not judging them when things don't go perfectly.
Linda from Brainerd, Minnesota, writes:
I just had to share this one with you (I am smiling and chuckling as I write this): When I was the Primary president, we were having a really difficult time dealing with reverence. But the "worst" three in the whole primary were 11-year-old boys…all were the sons of the three members of the bishopric! The "ring-leader" was the son of the bishop:and me! I couldn't complain too much to the other parents, because I could hardly control my own! That was an interesting few months, until they finally advanced into Young Men.
Syndi from Chandler, Arizona, writes:
I can't believe all the articles I have been reading about this subject. Does no one have several small children right now? Every Sunday my husband and I are watching our four children (ages six, four, two, and seven months). We spend almost all of church in the hallway with one child or another. We try to teach our children to be quiet, bring quiet toys and quiet snacks; but there is only so much a person can do. Small children cannot be perfectly quiet no matter how much the parents try to help them. There is a reason that a child is required to be eight before baptism; they do not perfectly understand the difference between right and wrong (or quiet and noisy). Occasionally a child will escape my watchful eye during sacrament and I will find them wandering down the aisle or crawling under the benches a few seats up from us. I am not being neglectful or disrespectful of others…things happen, especially with small children.
Going to church is a very difficult burden for families with small children. With as much time as I have spent in the halls and foyers the last five years, I sometimes wonder why I have bothered to come. I attend because our Lord and his prophets have told me to.
If a person is bothered by the noises small children make, then sit in the front! Remember that everyone was once a small child and was prone to mischief that a diligent parent cannot always prevent.
If you do see one of my children escaping, please gently remind them to go back to their parents and remember that the Savior told us to be like the children.
Alison says:
Syndi, thanks for your viewpoint, but I'm kind of baffled. Did you read the entire article? There was a very lengthy portion (from me, no less) speaking specifically about the troubles of keeping a bunch of children quiet. I certainly know where you are coming from. But in spite of my sympathy and personal experience (both past and present) with toddlers in church, I still do feel that most wards have a long way to go in the reverence department. As I said, I cannot take my toddler out to the deathly boring foyer when he is noisy—as my parents did with me—because the foyer is an absolute circus with a mass of children who have been taken to romp and run as some kind of odd reward for misbehaving in Sacrament Meeting. And people wonder why Primary is chaotic?
Bless their hearts, we just had two of the most valiant, scholarly women called to run our nursery a couple of weeks ago. Stress the word "run." This is the most organized nursery I have ever seen. One friend lamented that it was an "incredible waste of talent." I know what she meant, but no amount of talent seems wasted when your own child is the recipient! These children will be well-prepared to move on to Primary. What a blessing to the whole ward!
Of course our children can't be perfect. So we do our best. And sometimes we accept help from loving family ward members. I think that's all anyone really asks.
Valerie writes:
This was such an interesting article! I loved reading all the points of view, which were very insightful. I'm from the generation where if my child was misbehaving in sacrament all I had to say was "Do you want me to take you out?" Of course I didn't mean it in the same context they use in the movies nowadays. They knew that this meant that I would take them outdoors or to an empty classroom, and they would get a spank. I don't feel I was being violent; I was just trying to get their attention. This would start when I felt they were old enough to sit through a meeting without misbehaving. I had pretty bright children and they got the message very quickly. Once they were baptized then they were expected to sit through a meeting with no toys, food or drawing supplies. At some point those "quiet supplies" become more disruptive than helpful.
As to parents who do not believe their children need to be held to any kind of discipline standard, my heart goes out to them in pity. Because if you won't discipline a five-year-old,then you certainly can't discipline a 15-year-old. Respect for parents, family, property, teachers, etc., has to be learned young. It has to be ingrained. It can be taught later, maybe by peer pressure or at boot camp, but as I said, it's much easier to teach a five-year-old than a 15-year-old.
Many times parents reap what they sow. I have laid a gentle hand on many misbehaving children's shoulders and reminded them they were in the Lord's house. Sometimes I was rebuffed, but most times they just needed to be reminded where they were and they calmed down.
An anonymous southern sister writes:
The main thing we can do is to work on our own family's reverence, which includes: being on time, listening to the prelude music, singing the songs of Zion, and taking the sacrament worthily each week. There are numerous tricks up a mother's sleeve to accomplish this. We need to involve our children in cleaning up any mess made by our family. We can attempt to leave the chapel quietly, dealing with business in the hall. For mothers, it does mean we sacrifice a lot of our social time to keep up with and gather our children to leave the building intact. I strongly feel that children should not be left to their own devices after sacrament meeting. I don't think the older kids should play basketball in the cultural hall on Sunday. I don't think the younger ones should climb the trees. I have lots of opinions…but my main charge is my own family. For the young mothers, hold onto the truth that there are seasons of your life where it won't be so difficult! I admire the mothers of many children who manage to come week after week, going home exhausted from the effort! I admire the foster mothers who have taken in children with many challenges, and bring them to hear the good news of the gospel. I hope that I can assist, and help, and know where to draw the line between helping and hurting.
Jeane from Wyoming, writes:
I may be a bit late speaking to this, but over the years I've come to wonder if much of the difficulties with children misbehaving and their parents not correcting them might be from what seems to be many parents' interpretation of the Biblical admonition about not "offending" the little ones. My impression is that often they seem to think that if they correct a child and the child becomes unhappy as a result, the child will have been "offended." I keep thinking that, if parents would/could see that allowing a child to become a brat that nobody wants to associate with is a far greater offense to that little one, perhaps they would/could rethink their interpretation and also remember the admonition to "Train up a child in the way he should go…"
I've seen some children who were real little monsters grow up into decent, respectable adults, but I don't think we can always count on it without tender, caring and consistent guidance, training, discipline. And not taking offense if someone slows your kid down in the hall or kindly shushes the child, etc.
Andree writes:
I remember one bishop's wife (with eight kids) who instead of just taking her children out to run amok in the hallways, took her children out to the Relief Society room (the service was broadcast into the Relief Society room). There she would sit with them until they got themselves under control. She said she was giving the "Sitting Lessons." I always thought this was a great idea. Instead of rewarding her children's disruptive behavior by taking them out and allowing them to run amok, she patiently worked with them to develop the control to be able to sit still during the Sacrament Meeting.
Alison says:
Andree, I love the name "sitting lessons"! This is what my parents did. Now if I could just find an empty room amongst the other three wards sharing the building with ours!
Michelle in Austin, Texas, writes:
Once again, you are right on target, with issues that are pertinent and points of view diverse enough to help us all do a little deeper thinking.
I think another issue here is what level of respect and courtesy should we expect from church members at church activities? Having performed many times at church events when children are allowed to run wild--and I mean climbing on the stage, pulling on microphones, props, decorations and curtains, screaming and running up front for all to see and hear—it's enough to make me not want to participate as a performer when the few make it difficult for any to enjoy the performance. (It also often throws us off and we mess up, thus having to endure embarrassment as well as stage fright!) And children aren't the only culprits. Adults are walking around and trying to talk over the performance as well. Literally hours are spent preparing for musical and other cultural performances to be shared with ward members in just a few minutes. Can we not expect the simple courtesy of sitting quietly and enjoying what others have taken the time and effort to prepare? I am also the mother of six young children and understand how difficult it is to keep children quiet at these sorts of activities and I understand the occasional outburst, but I also realize the importance of teaching them that there is a time and a place for frolicking and a time and a place for courteous behavior. My children are as rowdy as the next person's and I only have two hands, so I appreciate the sense of civic responsibility and community I feel when another adult helps remind my child in a kind way (or a direct way such as removal) that even at church (especially at church) we have a duty to be respectful of others. This would include not running in the halls of the church nor playing in the chapel. (Oops, my pet peeve is showing…) For me to feel outraged that another would reprimand my child is for me to have my pride hurt and to feel guilty that I allowed my child to be disrespectful (even if unintentionally.) It is not "our right" to be at these activities and do what we want, it is a blessing and opportunity provided to bring unity and personal development. What price respect, community, and civility when personal freedom is allowed to run rampant? (Now there is a whole other topic for discussion…) The problem comes when one person's expectation of respect is different from another person. Therefore, I don't think it inappropriate for whoever is chairing the activity to set expectations and stand at the beginning to tactfully remind ward members to sit back and quietly help their children to enjoy the show or presentation that others have spent great time and effort to share with them and if children are running loose in the building to ask parents to take a minute to gather their children so that they won't miss this great opportunity and to prevent any accidents from occuring while children are unsupervised. I would also love to see a ward activity where those doing the planning consider that children are present and can only hold still for so long, thus providing diversions for them while adults socialize/listen or keeping the "sit still" stuff to an endurable length. It would even be great if the Bishop welcomed members to each activity and kindly reminded the children (and thus, the adults by default) that we are guests in Heavenly Father's building and though here to have fun, we must also show respect by not running in the halls or playing in the chapel or ringing the bell, etc. These sorts of reminders seem to be accepted better when coming from the Bishop, especially when done lightly and not heavy-handed.
I remember being miffed when, upon moving into a new church building, we were treated to a high councilor telling us over the pulpit how we and our children should treat the new building. I remember feeling at the time, given what the well-intentioned brother said, that the building seemed more important than the people using it. I have since come to realize that the message was true even though it may not have been delivered well. So in that sense, I see that often how something is said is as important as what is being said ("I can't hear you because you're shouting at me.") I believe it is our duty to respect all within the Lord's buildings—be it person or thing—and to kindly and tactfully remind others "when moved upon by the spirit" and in a spirit of love to do the same. And if we or our children are the receivers of said reminder, that we consider, in a spirit of meekness, the truth of the message.
P.S. Alison, you were the Relief Society president in the BYU 98th Ward when we were also in the ward. We have many fond memories of the Moon River apartments and the 98th ward. It amazes me that I am still learning from you after all these years! Thank you, thank you!
Alison says:
Michelle!!!
Michelle and her husband, Dan, were truly (cross my heart) one of our favorite couples in our old ward. I found myself nodding in agreement all the through her response—before I realized that the writer was an old friend. How nice to be "reunited." She is a veteran performer and was part of the Lamanite Generation performing group at BYU.…when we were young! So she certainly knows whereof she speaks!
How I agree with everything you said, Michelle. I didn't realize I had a clone! In a past ward I did finally decide never to perform again. Doing so was an utter embarrassment. My husband videotaped two of our daughters singing (their first solo performances) while chaos reigned around them. Although we tried to remain positive, both girls felt humiliated, "No one even listened." Next I sang with a microphone—and I have a big voice even without one (are you surprised?)—and I am barely audible on the videotape. Just as you said, it really wasn't worth the hours of preparation for a few minutes of being background noise to screaming, stomping, chattering, and chair clanging.
On the other hand, last month I was in charge of arranging periodic musical numbers during the Relief Societies "Super Saturday" activity. With sewing, painting, and power sanding going on I knew the same situation might exist. So when I asked each person to perform, I warned them that it wouldn't be a very attentive setting (which actually made some people more willing to perform). Then, when each number was announced (about one per half hour) I specifically asked that power tools be turned off for the moment and that the chat be kept to a low buzz. And I put my own performance during lunch, which was probably the noisiest (like I said, I have a big voice). The women were generally very polite and the performers and attendees all seemed pleased with the arrangement. (Oh, except the one women I later overhead saying, "Oh! I'll be so glad when the music stops!" Wahhh hahhh!)
Your suggestions are wonderful. If the bishop and/or the organizer/announcer would make a point to set the tone in a performance setting, it would be so very helpful. Some people have never been to a concert and some have never performed publicly and, perhaps, don't realize how much difficulty the poor behavior causes. Both Jeannie and Kathy are veteran performers, so I'm sure they have war stories to share as well.
An anonymous reader from Arizona writes:
It may be too late for this to be added but I think this is important.
I am a new member and attend church with my 3 and 4 year old boys. They are learning appropriate behavior but it is a slow process. Both of my children have sensory problems and just getting thru the Sacrament meeting is an ordeal for me. It doesn't matter where we sit, what they have to occupy them or so on. They are overloaded by the activity around them (even when everyone is quiet and still.) My older son has an autism spectrum disorder called Asperger's Syndrome. You wouldn't really know if you just casually talked to him (you'd just think he was very bright but odd.) It isn't bad parenting or lack of appropriate parenting that makes him behave the way he does. His particular form of Asperger's includes intolerance of change (hence sometimes huge temper tantrums) and poor body awareness. It is impossible for him to sit on a metal folding chair for an hour. It hurts him to sit in a pew also. I try to sit in the pews on the side and let him sit on the floor where he can be quiet. If you only knew the challanges he has to over come just to survive the hour. His younger brother has Sensory Integration Dysfunction. The lights, the movement, the music all can make him burst into tears.
I grew up in a religion where children would sit absolutely quietly in church for a total of 5 hours a week. But, I also saw tons of broken wooden spoons in the bathroom from the spankings the children received to get them to behave. I had my share of spankings, pinches and so on. In fact, there was a directive from the headquareters of this particular church that you should no longer take your child outside to be spanked because you could be accused of child abuse—so please do spankings in the bathroom.
I'd much rather be in the LDS church where children are loved and respected. I can put up with a little bit of noise. That being said I feel as though my ward is different from all those described here -- it is a bit noisy but when I take the boys to the foyer everyone is sitting very quietly and there are few people out there. At the Christmas party I went to last year the children were remarkably well behaved.
I knew it would be difficult for me when I first went to church. In fact, I put off going for several months because I didn't know how I'd get thru that first hour. But the missionaries in the ward at the time (sister missionaries) arranged for different families to sit with us. Even now sometimes someone will come sit with us. Perhaps if more people offered to help a mother struggling (especially those alone) things would be quieter.
I personally am so grateful when people help out with my children and it teaches children that they have to listen to other adults not just mom and dad. When my children get older I'll be on the lookout for those who might just need a bit of a helping hand. This isn't a matter of shirking responsibility for my family but on those days when I feel near tears an encouraging word does wonders. And it always seems to be the mothers with grown children who say simply to my son "Listen to your mother." And they do it with such love and care. He listens because my kids always listen to others before they do listen to me. I wish I could hug every single one of them.
It is hard enough to belong to this church when my husband is totally not interested. It is hard enough to instill righteous principles in my children each day when they have no other LDS family anywhere. The last thing I need to do is worry about how my family looks to others.
Commonsense Etiquette: A Guide to Gracious, Simple Manners for the Twenty-First Century
The Home as an Educational Institution
"Keep Your Fork; We're Having Pie" and Other Social No-No's
Letitia Baldrige's New Manners for New Times: A Complete Guide to Etiquette