LJ writes:
Hello sisters. I’ve been dating a guy for two months now and I really like him. He’s a great LDS guy and things are progressing. I think we have a future together. The only problem is that he has had a problem with pornography addiction over the past ten years. Some of my friends think I should dump him because of that, but he’s been sober for three months now with only a couple of slip-ups and is really open and honest with me about his temptations and mistakes.
We all make mistakes. No one is perfect. I think that he deserves a chance to be happy and to have love and a family, just like the rest of us. But two of my friends won’t let it go. I’d ask my mom, but I don’t want to cloud her perception of him with his past mistakes. Could you tell me what you think?
Tracy says:
It may not seem so now, but I can tell you without any equivocation that the decision you make about dating this guy will be a major contributing factor to the rest of your life, whether you end up marrying him or not. Because if your willing to continue to pursue this relationship, knowing what you know, then it says a lot about who you’re likely to date in the future.
First, let’s start with the last thing you said, “I’d ask my mom, but I don’t want to cloud her perception with his past mistakes.” First, we’re not talking about “the past,” are we? In three months he’s had “slip-ups.” So he might have slipped up last week? Yesterday? Ten minutes ago? Second, think about what you said: you “don’t want to cloud her perception.”
You don’t? Isn’t that exactly what you want to do? Telling the truth won’t “cloud her perception.” Hiding the truth will cloud it.
For her to have an accurate perception, she’d have to know the truth. The truth is how things really are. She can’t have an accurate perception without the truth. You’re only allowing her to see and know, what you want her to see and know.
Be honest with yourself. You don’t want her to know how things really are; you want to cloud her perception. You want her to think that he’s this great guy with no serious hang ups. You like him, so you want her to like him. You’re not allowing her to have a true perception. And you know she wouldn’t approve of him if she knew the truth, so you’re clouding her perception of him, by withholding the truth.
I promise you, you have no idea the huge problem that pornography is in this young man’s life. For you to say “he’s a great LDS guy…” and “the only problem is a pornography addiction” demonstrates that you don’t understand how horrible and far-reaching such an addiction really is.
You said that he’s had this problem for ten years. Someone with a ten year addiction is not “sober” in three months. Besides, you can’t be sober and have a few “slip-ups”. Slipping up means that he’s not sober. Don’t you see that? You’re either committing the sin or you’re not, right? You’ve either fully repented, or you haven’t. If he’s “slipping up” then he hasn’t fully repented. He hasn’t had the change of heart that comes with true repentance.
He might want to stop, but the pornography has such a huge power over him, that he’s continuing to do it. And I can almost guarantee you that he’s looking at it more than he’s admitting. People with addictions do this all the time. They admit to “a little something here” and “a little something there.” But they never tell the whole truth. They only tell just enough to make you think they’re telling the truth.
And you must know that looking at pornography is not an isolated sin. I’m not trying to gross anyone out, but the truth is the truth, and this is too important to not address. People don’t just “look” at pornography. They do “other things” while they’re looking at it. If he’s been looking at pornography for ten years then he’s been those “other things” for ten years, too. And if he does that, then it’s likely that he’s been committing several other sins of immorality with other people.
You said “he deserves to be happy.” Do any of us “deserve” to be happy?
Happiness isn’t something that we deserve. It’s something that we pursue, something that we earn. If you really think about it, happiness is almost like a reward. Isn’t happiness the result of the good and righteous choices we’ve made? Remember the quote “wickedness never was happiness”? He can’t be happy as long as he continues in his sin.
Does Heavenly Father want him to be happy? Of course! Does Heavenly Father want this young man to do as you said and get married and have a family? Of course he does…. eventually, after he’s fully repented. Plus, any therapist will tell you, he’d have to go for at least a good two years to be considered “addiction free.” This young man can’t even go for three months! Families are ripped apart and destroyed by this. Is that a chance you’re willing to take? Especially when he’s still dealing with it and hasn’t given it up yet?
He’s a tormented soul right now. The last thing he needs is to be dating. But you know what? The person I’m the most concerned about right now is you. Think about some of the things you said:
- You’ve only been dating him for two months.
- Already, you’re talking about possibly having “a future together”
- And that’s despite the fact that he’s had a pornography addiction for ten years
Sweetheart, think deeply about yourself for a minute. What is it about you, that makes this picture look attractive to you? Why, once you found out about his problem, would you continue to be interested, when there are young men out there who are worthy now, who don’t have this problem, and won’t suffer the effects of it for the rest of their lives, the way this young man most likely will? Why are you so desperate for a relationship that you’re willing to accept this, instead of pursuing a different guy who doesn’t come with so much baggage? Why have you set such a low standard?
What makes it worse, is this guy is still involved in the sin. So he can’t worthily exercise the priesthood, bless the Sacrament or pass it. He can’t worthily hold callings, or say an opening or closing prayer at church….why is that attractive to you? Don’t you want more than this?
I’m going to make a huge leap. And forgive me if this seems too forward, but remember, you have complete anonymity. I don’t know who you are, and neither does anyone else.
I have the feeling that things have already gone too far between you and this young man.
To what extent? I can’t say. Only you know the answer to that. But let me tell you why I feel this way.
First, a young woman who has kept herself morally clean and has no feelings of shame, would not continue to date a young man once she found out that he had such a horrible and wanton addiction, one that’s lasted for so long, and one that he continues to “slip up” on. It would be an automatic turn off. And second, it would explain why you already feel so attached to him, that your willing to sort of “brush off” one of the most far-reaching, and life altering sins.
Please don’t misunderstand, I am not saying that someone who’s kept all the standards of chastity could never be interested in someone who hasn’t. Someone who has repented is clean before the Lord. He remembers it no more. That’s the miracle of forgiveness. And there are plenty of people who have truly repented of sexual sin and were then worthy to marry in the temple, to someone who’d remained clean. But, if this guy had been shooting up with heroine for ten years, and was sober for only three months (except for a few slip-ups here and there when he gave in to the temptation) would you have written in telling us that you think you might have a future together? That everyone makes mistakes and he deserves to be happy and have a family and children?
Well isn’t this the same?
Sweetheart do you feel so unworthy that this looks “good” to you? If so, why? Whether your lack of self-worth is from sin or something else, please don’t settle like this.
If you have need to repent, repent. Stop torturing yourself. Bishops don’t yell at you like some angry parent. You know what they do? They cry with you. Literally. They pray with you. They pray for you. They help you to become clean and truly happy.
If I was completely wrong and you’re relationship with this man is totally innocent, then keep it that way and call it off. Because I promise you, you can’t be in a romantic relationship with a man who has an addiction to pornography and sexual sin and maintain you’re own virtue. He’ll pressure you, push you a little further each time, slowly knocking down your defenses and in the heat of the moment, you’ll eventually succumb.
Your friends are right. And you know what? I think that when you’re laying in bed at night, and your all alone in the quiet, you know you shouldn’t be in this relationship. You probably tell yourself you’re going to make some changes, that you’re going to be strong and do what’s right. But then in the morning, your determination seems to have faded away right along with the moonlight.
I wish we were in the same room. I’d throw my arms around you, look you straight in the eye and beg you to end this relationship.
You’re a daughter of God. A spark of the Divine is woven through your entire soul.
Come on girl, dig deep. It’s in you. Find that, and you won’t ever have to ask this kind of question again.
Alison says:
LJ, would you be offended if I beat my head against a rock and then chased you down the street with a pea shooter?
Here’s my advice:
- Dump
- Run
Any questions?
{ 70 comments… read them below or add one }
Hmm – I can’t add much that hasn’t already been said. I used to have this romantic idea of marrying a guy who was “experienced,” but I came to realize it is not romantic in the least. There is nothing more sexually romantic than a guy who is honest with himself and with you, who comes to a marriage completely clean and wanting to discover sex with you. There is nothing romantic in experience. There is nothing romantic in “knowing how to please” himself or you. There is nothing romantic about sexual baggage, whether it is physical or mental.
Pornography supercedes unrealistic expectations on a man’s (or on a woman’s) mind and sexual responses. Although (s)he may repent, the web strands of visual or mental sexual sin are nearly impossible to clean away in this life. If you decide to marry, the rest of your life will be colored by his addiction. You will become intimately acquainted with a heartache that cannot be fully explained or understood until you are in it. Please, don’t enter this pool with your eyes open. It’s bad enough if you don’t know what you’re getting into.
Of course, Christ can cleanse even these sins from a man’s mind and heart. That cleansing is not easy, and the recipient must be completely devoted to change before it can happen. Such devotion is nearly nonexistent. In addition, the process completely removes the desire to partake in that sin again. I agree with others in saying that it doesn’t sound like your date has gone through that refining fire.
Not yet, anyways. Perhaps not ever. Don’t gamble your eternity on his desire for repentance.
My heart goes out to LJ.
There was a time when I dated the “bad boys”. It’s really easy to think that they are just being misunderstood. They might have done this or that to others but I’m the one they really loved. (despite being treated badly). I finally had to make a decision to look for a different type. Someone who might not be as exciting but who could be relied upon. In the end I knew, that life might not have those big highs but it wouldn’t plummet to the same depths either.
Lj, that’s a decision that you need to make too. This man has a problem. Some day if he is sincere in fighting it, then God will place someone there for him. But that isn’t today. Not if he’s slipping. Remember, he’s placed you on that same slippery slope. You’ve accepted him in spite of this sin. He will continue to push the envelope until you slide down into that pit with him. Then he’ll leave.
One more thing. You say he deserves happiness. But look at it this way. People don’t change easily. So if you are so sure that being with him is the right thing. Start planning now. What are you going to say to your son or daughter the first time they find the pictures Daddy has downloaded? How are you going to explain to your children to keep themselves pure although Daddy doesn’t practice what he preaches? Do yourself a favor – imagine the future should he be unable to change himself. What kind of future will your children have?
I think this site has some of the smartest readers of any I’ve visited. Maybe the wisest is a better way to say that. I learn a lot from reading everthing.
Oh, I was going to ask LJ something. Don’t YOU deserve happiness too? Do you think you’ll be happy with a guy who gets sexual fullfillment from other women?
I have said in other threads that we have serveral people in our circle of friends who have experienced problems with porn in their marriages. We have seen the suffering and destruction of marriages (some are divorced over this, led out of the marriage by God). Those who have stayed married have walked a painful, difficult road. Watching what they have gone through, I would be VERY, VERY hesitant to recommend that anyone knowingly choose such a life. Not that you couldn’t marry someone who had that problem in the past AND TRULY OVERCAME IT (for years, not a couple of months). In my mind, it would be one thing if he had had a problem 10 years ago and had had a couple of slip-ups during that decade that were minor. It’s concerning to me, though, that with a 10-year problem, he’s only been “sober” for three months, with slip-ups at that. Not a good track record to go on. Not yet. Tell him you’ll check in with him in a couple of years if you are still around.
While I believe this is a problem that can be overcome, I am particularly concerned about the fact that he claims that he has only been “sober” for almost the same time you have known each other. This suggests that he is trying hard, and perhaps trying hard for you. But remember that courtship is not reality; life is life and it’s challenging and after the honeymoon, it sets in (and sometimes fast). The stresses of life can cause addictions to rear their ugly heads. I don’t think you can base your decision on what he has done during your courtship. I personally would not feel enough confidence in a man who is suddenly shaping up now that I’m in his life. He might very well be sincere, and I believe he does deserve a wonderful life, but something this pervasive and powerful needs more than a couple of months of soberness. YOU deserve the best you can get. I don’t think you can appreciate how potentially this could define your life if you choose to marry someone who is not completely free of this problem.
None of my aforementioned friends to my knowledge had the luxury (or burden, depending on how you look at it) of knowing before marriage about their husbands’ problems. I am not sure if they would have done something different had they known. I can’t imagine choosing such a life unless the Spirit made it so absolutely clear that it was the right thing to do.
One of the key things to remember is that pornography distorts a man’s view of healthy sexuality and often of women. This in and of itself is a serious problem to consider and decide if you want to choose for your life. Three months trying to quit porn is not long enough, in my opinion, for him to have cleared his heart, sould and mind of the poisonous perspective that comes with porn problems. He could even not be looking at anything but still not have a healthy understanding of what sexuality is supposed to be.
So, in short, I really dont know that I would recommend choosing a life where that is looming over your head. If you are still thinking you may want to stick with it, I would pray your heart out, talk to your bishop and parents for counsel and help with discernment, and really seek the Spirit to let you know if this is even worth continuing at all. My gut reaction is to walk away and let him get things figured out first, to make sure that the repentance is genuine, consistent, and long enough to be trustworthy (I’m talking a matter of a year or two of truly free behavior).
Best to you.
I also think it’s important to realize that porn addiction seldom, if ever, stays at the same level it starts at. I don’t want to be too graphic, but what I mean by that is I HIGHLY doubt that he’s still looking at the type of porn now that he was looking at 10 years ago. In fact, it sends chills down my spine to imagine the depravity he has sunk to in order to feel the same, uhm, stimulation that originally snared him in this net called pornography.
Diana — Probably seldom, not never. One of the aforementioned friends we know really did keep issues at a level that didn’t sink into unthinkable depravity. Not all porn problems are created equal. NOT trying to minimize them at any level (after all, Elder Oaks said that even “soft porn” is porn and it’s a problem), but just to say that there is no way to really know how severe the problem is in each situation. The severity would impact the level of addiction and the corresponding time and effort and help that would be required to overcome the addiction.
Diana did say “seldom.” She didn’t say “never.”
Yeah, I know, Alison. She said, “seldom if ever” and so I was sharing something to eliminate the “if ever” option.
(Am I annoying people with my comments?)
LOL no. I gotcha. I thought you had misread her. Instead, I misread you. Sorry.
I didn’t mean to make such a broad generalization. I’m sorry. I just truly believe Satan starts with the little things until the little things gradually grow into great big things, like in the ole Camel in the Tent allegory.
“…yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever. “
No need to apologize. You are right on. He’s gets us where ever he can and once we justify moving our standard on inch, is easier to justify moving it an inch more. We’d rarely ever leap a foot at a time, but each little fraction of an inch seems meaningless.
For the record, I don’t disagree at all about that general concept. At all. It’s scary to get even one inch into the devil’s territory, with ANY problem. And frankly, I think most of the time you are right about the specifics as well — porn is often (if not almost always) a downward spiral kind of problem that often leads to terrible consequences. I just think that it’s good to hold that chance in our minds that not all people who have porn struggles are in the worst mode possible, ya know? And to remember that the people struggling are people who need love and support, too…I can’t imagine being caught in such a snare. And my heart aches for anyone affected directly or indirectly.
The fact that the man has been honest about this problem to you shows that he is not trying to keep it a secret from you and he may be suffering from guilt feelings and shame and those can cause a heavy burden. I would say that he loves you or he would not trust you with this information.
My husband is 5 1/2 years sober from alcoholism and I know from experience that love and support (not enabling) and prayer can lead him from this destructive sin. Don’t judge him – we all have sin, no matter what it might be – but if he is in denial and refuses to go for help, I would question whether he is truly repentant and willing to submit to changing. Satan wants us to be weighed down by guilt and be ashamed to come to the Savior for forgiveness. Encourage your fiance towards recovery because there is hope.
There is help for the problem he has. Look on the internet or in the paper for a support group in your area called Celebrate Recovery. It is a Christ-centered support group for people with hurts, habits and hang-ups, and it is for anything from substance abuse to emotional pain – anything that may be keeping you from a fulfilling relationship with the Savior. There is forgiveness through sincere repentance and the atonement of Jesus. People don’t change, but the Lord changes people. If you really love him and believe he wants freedom from this habit that truly has him in bondage, pray for him and support him through repenting and recovery.
Celebrate Recovery is Eight Recovery Principles based on the BEATITUDES that Jesus taught:
R= Principle 1 -
Realize I’m not God; I admit that I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and my life is unmanageable.
“Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor”
E= Principle 2 -
Earnestly believe that God exists, that I matter to him, and that he has the power to help me recover.
“Happy are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted”
C= Principle 3 -
Consciously choose to commit all my life and will to Christ’s care and control.
“Happy are the meek”
O= Principle 4 -
Openly examine and confess my faults to God, to myself, and to someone I trust.
“Happy are the pure in heart”
V= Principle 5 -
Voluntarily submit to every change God wants to make in my life and humbly ask Him to remove my character defects.
“Happy are those whose greatest desire is to do what God requires”
E= Principle 6 -
Evaluate all my relationships; Offer forgiveness to those who have hurt me and make amends for harm I’ve done to others except when to do so would harm them or others.
“Happy are the merciful” “Happy are the peacemakers”
R= Principle 7 -
Reserve a daily time with God for self examination, Bible readings and prayer in order to know God and His will for my life and to gain the power to follow His will.
Y= Principle 8 -
Yield myself to God to be used to bring this Good News to others, both by my example and by my words.
“Happy are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires”
I will keep you both in prayer so that your lives will be happy together.
Welcome, Grace. Thank you for the really wonderful information.
Tracy,
I am a male who is currently struggling with this problem of pornography addiction. After reading your response, I felt I had to respond. Maybe this might fall on deaf ears, but I feel that you have very little real knowledge about this addiction (besides what you’ve heard in general conference or read in the Ensign), and I am glad you will not stand in Jesus Christ’s place at my judgment, though you seem quite anxious to do that now for LJ’s boyfriend.
You and the people like you are part of the reason that addictions like these are so hard to overcome. If someone like me or LJ’s boyfriend were to ask you for help on an issue such as this, you wouldn’t know where to start – I bet you think you do – but in practice, I guarantee you that you have absolutely nothing to offer but condemnation and judgment.
Where do you get off accusing LJ of breaking the law of chastity with her boyfriend? Those accusations are unwarranted and insidiously offensive.
I can easily picture you among those wanting to stone the woman accused of adultery. You would have been among those who tried to hold Jesus back from healing the unclean leper. I am far from perfect, but I have learned to recognize the Spirit – and it is completely absent from your response.
Please take an honest look inside your heart, because you will be judged with the same judgment that you make.
Sincerely,
An Anonymous Guy
Welcome, AnonymousGuy. Your input is appreciated and welcome, my response notwithstanding.
We have to start with some intellectual honesty. Tracy is not trying to make final judgment on LJ’s boyfriend anymore than you are trying to make final judgment on Tracy. We DO judge, we’re supposed to. Point to someone who didn’t make an judgments before deciding whom to marry and you’ll be pointing at an idiot. Tracy is just as welcome to make judgments here as you are.
Again, let’s be honest. Addictions are not hard to overcome because people speak out about addictions. That is an irresponsible position to take–which may be one reason that your addiction is “so hard to overcome.”
This may be true. Speaking for myself, I certainly do not claim expertise at helping anyone to stop viewing porn. My thought is, well, to stop looking at porn. Get rid of the means to view porn and refuse to be in situations where there could be porn. Likely too simplistic a view for you and many others.
Still, this column was not written as a self-help tool to assist porn-viewers in their quest to be porn-free. It was addressing a question from a woman who couldn’t understand the outside pressure for her to break up withe the addict and to settle down with a guy who wasn’t into porn.
Honestly, AG, I’m not convinced that porn-viewing is an “addiction” and, if it is, I think we’ve expanded the term to include almost anything that we shouldn’t do, but find hard to give up. But, for the sake of argument, let’s say you ARE addicted to porn. For heaven’s sake, why would you support the idea of anyone marrying someone who had any unhealthy, sinful ADDICTION? Is that the kind of guy you’d choose for your daughter?
“Sure, honey, he gets off on other women every day, but he’s a great guy for the most part. That’s probably the best you can do anyway. And he deserves a faithful, virginal wife, who won’t condemn him. Who better than you?”
You are following the same faulty thought process that LJ had. Marrying someone is not the method to heal them. Porn addicts are children of God, but they aren’t the best marriage choice for faithful, LDS women who want temple marriages, priesthood leadership, and fidelity.
Welcome, AnonymousGuy. Your input is appreciated and welcome, my response notwithstanding.
We have to start with some intellectual honesty. Tracy is not trying to make final judgment on LJ’s boyfriend anymore than you are trying to make final judgment on Tracy. We DO judge, we’re supposed to. Point to someone who didn’t make an judgments before deciding whom to marry and you’ll be pointing at an idiot. Tracy is just as welcome to make judgments here as you are.
Again, let’s be honest. Addictions are not hard to overcome because people speak out about addictions. That is an irresponsible position to take–which may be one reason that your addiction is “so hard to overcome.”
This may be true. Speaking for myself, I certainly do not claim expertise at helping anyone to stop viewing porn. My thought is, well, to stop looking at porn. Get rid of the means to view porn and refuse to be in situations where there could be porn. Likely too simplistic a view for you and many others.
Still, this column was not written as a self-help tool to assist porn-viewers in their quest to be porn-free. It was addressing a question from a woman who couldn’t understand the outside pressure for her to break up withe the addict and to settle down with a guy who wasn’t into porn.
Honestly, AG, I’m not convinced that porn-viewing is an “addiction” and, if it is, I think we’ve expanded the term to include almost anything that we shouldn’t do, but find hard to give up. But, for the sake of argument, let’s say you ARE addicted to porn. For heaven’s sake, why would you support the idea of anyone marrying someone who had any unhealthy, sinful ADDICTION? Is that the kind of guy you’d choose for your daughter?
“Sure, honey, he gets off on other women every day, but he’s a great guy for the most part. That’s probably the best you can do anyway. And he deserves a faithful, virginal wife, who won’t condemn him. Who better than you?”
You are following the same faulty thought process that LJ had. Marrying someone is not the method to heal them. Porn addicts are children of God, but they aren’t the best marriage choice for faithful, LDS women who want temple marriages, priesthood leadership, and fidelity.
LJ,
I believe you are very Christ-like in trying to be understanding of your boyfriend. My advice would be to forget about everything that old bag Tracy said, and to talk to the Lord and your Bishop about this (and not because I believe you need to confess your supposed immorality). People like Tracy can’t understand why you would even consider continuing to date your boyfriend, and so they insult your intelligence. I have learned in life that such people usually have very little of real substance to offer you. The reason Tracy and other’s can’t understand you is because they have never been in your place, or else have never experienced the same feelings that you feel. (Maybe Tracy had some kindness in her once, but lost it during menopause, I don’t know). I would suggest to you that there is a divine aspect to your tendency to want to extend mercy and help to your boyfriend in this case.
That said, I think you should be very cautious, and make no definite commitments or promises of something beyond dating, and recognize that an addiction like pornography takes time to conquer. Just how much time, I have absolutely no idea, as I’m still not through it. I do know one thing, however, that messages and ideas like Tracy’s do very little to shorten that time period.
You have to understand the magnitude of what you are getting yourself into. It is completely within your power to end the relationship at this point, and I know it will hurt your boyfriend, but you should seriously consider that option. The longer you stay with this guy, the harder it will be to end it down the road.
If you feel that staying with him is what the Lord wants you to do – make sure you do so after significant fasting and prayer, and counseling with your bishop – because you want a decision such as that to not be tainted in any way by emotion. Make sure it is the right thing – not just what you might want emotionally.
I agree with what many have said at this point, that your boyfriend does not deserve to be happy. Don’t stay with him out of obligation, or because you would feel guilty about leaving him.
I guess what I’m saying is you need to figure out the right decision for yourself – and to do that with the Lord’s help, through the power of the Holy Ghost – not to have the “obvious” solution crammed down your throat by a bunch of judgmental, self-righteous Mormon pharisees.
Oh, and one last thing, if you do decide that you guys have a future together – do not settle for anything less than a Temple Marriage – and inform your boyfriend of this standard. This will require your friend to truly repent and overcome this, at least I believe that his bishop and stake president will have the wisdom given to them to be able to know and understand when he is fully cleansed – and only then will they approve you guys to be sealed. Pray for them to have discernment and wisdom. If your boyfriend is not able to meet the worthiness requirement for a Temple Marriage after a long time, you will know that he is not right – don’t ever settle for anything less than the Temple.
Anyway, I hope my comments were helpful – I at least think they carry a little more weight than some of the previous comments – as I have dealt with this issue personally.
Your friend,
An Anonymous Guy
Hey Alison,
I was going to edit this line before I posted and then forgot – thanks for pointing it out. I would have said, “You and the people like you are part of the reason that addictions like these are so hard to overcome.” In fact – I just edited it out. I don’t believe in blaming others for my actions – I only point it out, because it represents an absence of genuine help.
As for the rest of your message – I think you’ll see from my response to LJ that I don’t advocate she marry a porn-addict. I believe he needs to overcome this before that point – I don’t believe that marriage is the method to heal him. Just how you got the impression that I believe that is beyond me.
-AG
And, take it however you want, I am going through hell to overcome this – and until you know what that’s like – I’d be very cautious.
-AG
Actually, from what you’ve posted, you haven’t dealt with her problem. She has the problem of wanting a future with a guy who’s a porn addict. I assume you haven’t been in that position.
Perhaps its because you have resorted to ad hominem in your disagreement with her, even though her main point is to advise LJ to call off the relationship rather than marry him. You went so far as to accuse her of not wanting people to be healed simply because she doesn’t advise women to marry those who are sick.
Feel free to point out particular points of disagreement to discuss, but the general, overreaching name-calling isn’t appropriate.
I appreciate that you are “going through hell.” I sincerely hope you can put this behind you. But understand that my hope for you is utterly distinct from what I hope for LJ or other LDS women. I don’t want any faithful, LDS woman to have romantic entanglements with you, with someone else who is addicted to porn, or with any man who has a serious, sinful situation–until the sin is clearly repented of and the addiction overcome.
I know from experience that this is not true. A temple marriage should require sincere repentance, but anyone can lie to get what they think they want. I’ve seen it time and again.
I, personally, think that it the cost is too high to marry someone addicted to anything, especially when there are so many out there who are pure and clean. And this is coming from someone who has had to go through the struggle to get over an addiction (insignificant though that addiction may have been in my bishops’ eyes.) When I was struggling with it, I wouldn’t have wanted anyone romantically entangled with me, either.
Anonymous Guy, you could NOT be more wrong about me and my knowledge about this subject.
I have very close family members and friends who’ve dealt with this, and have someone very close to me who’s suffered from this in a way you probably haven’t. You know how I know that?? Because I doubt that you have access to our website from a prison cell because your porn addiction led you to more serious sins and crimes, like his did.
Also, one of the people closest to me is the Head Nurse at a residential treatment center, and she deals with this all the time, so I’m also very familiar with the clinical and psychological side of the issue. On top of THAT my husband is a police officer, and he too is constantly dealing with perps and their addictions, whether it be porn or drugs. He takes them back and forth to rehab, back and forth to the psych wards and treatment centers.
He knows some of them personally, from outside of his job. When a local member of the church has issues with the law regarding crimes, porn and addictions, the local Bishops often ask the member’s permission to bring my husband along as a police officer/priesthood holder, who can counsel them at the treatment center or jail cell, from both the legal and the spiritual side .
So you have NO idea how much I DO know about this.
I didn’t actually accuse LJ of anything– just expressed concern that she was involved with him in a way she shouldn’t be. I even said that I was making a huge leap, and apologized if my leap was incorrect. My concern that LJ was sexually involved with her boyfriend was a real concern based on common sense, from their short dating period, her too soon assumption that they had a future together, and her obvious misunderstanding and dismissal of how serious her boyfriends problem really is. I WAS a young woman, I’m a YW leader now. And I talk with the girls about this stuff all time. (They talk very openly late at night at Girls’ Camp) I know how they think–the ones who are on the straight and narrow and the ones who aren’t.
I made frequent reference to the Savior in my response to LJ, about forgiveness and repentence… that even her boyfriend could be made clean, could repent and have a happy life, with a wife and children. So I don’t know where you got the idea that I was unforgiving, would cast stones, was devoid of the Spirit…. were you trying to read my response on a computer with the contrast turned all the way down to 5, and a pair of very dark sunglasses on?
I was simply saying that right now… this guy is not someone she should be involved with or be considering as a possible future husband. Would YOU choose him for YOUR daughter’s spouse? If you had a daughter dating someone with his 10 year addiction that he was STILL into, would you be happy she was dating him?
What’s ironic is that you say I’m casting erroneous judgment. Nothing I said was “judgmental”– other than the fact that what her boyfriend was doing was a sin. And it is. If you want to call that unfarily “judgmental”, go ahead.
But let’s look at how you judged ME:
You say I’d be one of the first to cast stones at a woman taken in adultery?
That I hold the Savior back from cleasning a leper?
That if someone were to come to me for help with a porn addiction that I would have nothing to offer but condemnation and judgment?
I HAVE friends that have committed adultery. Do you know they came to me FIRST?
They were afraid to go to the Bishop, but I’M the one who encouraged them to go.
I’m the one that sat beside them in Sacrament meeting because they were afraid that other members would SEE that they couldn’t take the Sacrament. I told them not to worry about what other members think or do. If the LORD could forgive them, then so should everyone else, and I was one of them.
Holding the Savior back from healing someone?
First of all, you’re putting leprosy in league with pornography and adultery. Having leprosy isn’t a sin. And one doesn’t GET leprosy from sinning.
Second, I’ve BEEN healed– from spiritual illness and physical illness. I’ve seen others healed, and have watched my husband place his hands on the heads of HIS friends who are struggling with pornography addictions. And believe me, I didn’t hold his hands back. You know what I did?
I sat by his wife through the blessing, gave her a hug after the blessing, then hugged him as well.
We’re still great friends, get together often, and I love them dearly.
As for someone coming to me about a porn addiction? The guy who was sitting in a prison cell because his addiction led him to commit perverse sexual crimes… he admitted them to me.
I encouraged him to talk to his Bishop. He ended up going to prison because it caught up with him. I wrote to him while his was there. I sent him cards of encouragment, sent him a copy of Believing Christ, (probably THE best book explaining the Atonement and how Christ could heal him) and have KEPT contact with him since he’s been out. My husband and I took him out to dinner to catch up and see how he’s been doing since he’s been out, to encourage him to keep going to counseling even though it’s really hard for him to talk about it. Does that sound like someone who “in practice… have nothing but condemnation and judgment”?
Lastly, I was a victim of a sexual abuser as a child. Because he’s a relative, I’ve had frequent contact with him at family reunions and such. I always just acted like nothing had happened or like I didn’t remember. But I noticed, and it was known through the family that he was struggling in his own life, was unhappy in his marriage and his life in general, nor was he going to church.
I couldn’t help but think that some of that was because of his past with me; that he was consumed with guilt, that maybe he hadn’t confessed to a Bishop, that maybe he hadn’t been forgiven by God, nor had he forgiven himself and maybe THAT was the reason he wasn’t happy. He had a good job, a nice home, a nice family… there didn’t seem to be any other reason for his depression.
So I decided that I needed to let him know that I’D forgiven him. So after a barbecue at a family reunion, I pulled him aside and told him, right to his face. He broke down into tears and literally sobbed, his torso lunging forward because the sobbing was so heavy. I told him that I hoped he’d talked to his Bishop, and if he hadn’t that I hoped he would. He didn’t say anything the whole time except for “I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry” over and over again.
He started going back to church after that. (Though his life has once again gone seriously down hill.)
From the experiences in my life, and the experiences I’ve had with family and friends who HAVE been addicted to porn, and who HAVE committed adultery, and who HAVE committed sexual crimes against me, and others, I DO know what I’m talking about. I’m very familiar with their struggles and their pain. They’ve cried on my shoulder.
So you can say what you want Anonymous… you can assume what you want about me and what I’d do in any given situation. But I know it isn’t true. I know, because I’ve been there, and I know how I responded. And I’ll feel very confidant in front of my God and my Savior when they ask me about these things. Will you?
Anonymous Guy,
For what it’s worth, I don’t think people here are trying to be self-righteous. They are deeply concerned about LJ, as you are, too. I think we will all be able to help her more if we focus on her and her situation and not on trying to assess others’ hearts. You know addictions are tricky and as women, I think we are concerned about a sister getting into a situation that may be more than she bargained for. I will speak for myself, though, and say that such concern is not meant to be something to undermine you or your sincere efforts to overcome this. I wish you the best.
Honestly, AG, I’m not convinced that porn-viewing is an “addiction”
Hm. Haven’t our leaders made it clear what an insidious addiction it is? (See this page for some quotes.) I think I remember hearing about studies that have shown the change in brain chemistry that mimics drugs (could be mistaken there). I think we ought not dismiss porn addiction as a reality here, because I don’t think we would see such trouble with it and such repeated counsel about it if it weren’t really, really tough to overcome. And realizing that fact, IMO, can help LJ realize how serious the situation is, and to approach her decision very, very carefully.
I wouldn’t characterize my statement as a dismissal and I think you left off a crucial part of the sentence. I said:
Nowadays, most everything is a disease (measles, cancer, and obesity) and everything else is an addiction (drugs, sex, and porn). It’s not a bad choice or bad behavior. You may recall that Clinton wasn’t really an adulterer, he was a “sex addict.” I’m pretty sure brain chemistry changes during marital, monogamous sex, too. Mine does. So? The terms have become almost meaningless and I don’t think it has helped us overcome or even cope better. Where ever the truth lies, I think the result of this labeling or expanding of definitions over the past decades has been that we are (or believe we are) powerless to change or move forward.
Alison, I think there are situations where addiction is a copout label but many times it’s not. In fact, I think it’s healthy more often than not to recognize something as an addiction if someone will actually use that to get real help, not just to say, “Oh, I’ll just do better tomorrow.” Porn is that kind of potential addiction that only professional and spiritual help and a LOT of effort will change, in spite of all the desire in the world to do so, some addictions can’t be tackled simply by undoing the choices that were once made.
The whole powerlessness culture is an important one to remember, though, so I understand why you are bringing that up. I’m just not sure it’s something that is so far from the truth with severe porn addictions. People ARE powerless to change on their own at a certain point, because they have lost agency and are in Satan’s grasp/chains. That’s sobering, scary stuff.
I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir so I guess I think we probably don’t need to be having this little interchange, though….
BTW, Alison, I’m sorry for misrepresenting what you said. Hope we are OK.
No problem, Michelle, of course.
I’m not convinced that most porn addicts cannot change without professional help. I don’t care at all if people choose to get professional help, but the idea of helplessness in the face of sin doesn’t sit well with me.
If someone is addicted to pain killers, what happens if they have no access to them? Do they die? If the power goes out, do all the neighborhood porn addicts rush into the streets screaming and clawing themselves bloody?
As I’ve posted before, the husband of a friend began with mild web porn, more serious web porn, porn “addiction,” and eventually was busted when he propositioned a police decoy over the internet for sex. We’re talking returned missionary, married in the temple, with multiple kids. He spent six months in jail, excommunicated, and is now on the sex offender registry.
The important part in this context, is to tell you what he’s been doing since to get his life back. The first thing he did was to get rid of the internet. Completely. Totally. And every other porn access point that was available to him. Everything he does now is an open book and public. His money, his cell phone logs, and he never goes anywhere alone. And on and on.
Is this all annoying? Inconvenient? Embarrassing? A hassle? Yea, sure it is. It really puts up a barrier to his freedom and to his access to things in the digital age–even some good things. It has made aspects of his work very difficult. But to him, it is worth it to save his family, his marriage, and himself.
Not to pick on AnonymousGuy, but while he’s “going through hell to overcome” porn addiction, he’s still surfing the web. Now maybe he’s doing it with his mom or his bishop standing behind him or maybe he has a filter on and a log that he can’t hack and that someone else is monitoring. If so, great. But if I was a “porn addict” and I spent any amount of time with internet access–knowing that feeding my addiction was about .05 seconds and two mouse clicks away, I wouldn’t be overcoming the addiction anytime soon.
Do we send coke addicts to crack houses to sober up? Do we sign up those with the “disease of obesity” as employees at Baskin Robbins? Do we ask pedophiles to babysit?
It sure seems that our treatment mode lacks some common sense.
Not to pick on AnonymousGuy, but while he’s “going through hell to overcome” porn addiction, he’s still surfing the web. Now maybe he’s doing it with his mom or his bishop standing behind him or maybe he has a filter on and a log that he can’t hack and that someone else is monitoring. If so, great. But if I was a “porn addict” and I spent any amount of time with internet access–knowing that feeding my addiction was about .05 seconds and two mouse clicks away, I wouldn’t be overcoming the addiction anytime soon.
Aha. The light goes on. I get it and now all your comments are making more sense. You’re smart, ya know that?
I realize that this thread is a few weeks old (sorry, I’m just getting through some of the older stuff), but I just had to give my opinion on this.
Someone I am very close to has an addiction (habit??) to porn. It has caused unimaginable stress in his own and his family’s lives (including his extended family). He also allowed himself to spend money he didn’t really have on his habit, which nearly drove his family to bankruptcy in addition to dealing with the emotions of all of it.
He was first exposed to porn as a very young boy (10-11). Through his growing years, he occasionally indulged in it through magazines and movies (this was in the days before the internet was widely available). He confessed this to his bishop before serving a mission, thought he had overcome it, and went on his mission.
It wasn’t long after he returned home that his habit started again, this time via internet pornography. Like I said, he put a lot of charges on credit cards through the years and nearly ended up bankrupting his family (would have if not for the help of some of those close to him) over it.
He married in the temple (I’m certain he had to lie to his leaders to do this, in hindsight, although neither we – nor his wife – knew it at the time). Eventually, a few years and a few children later, he got caught in a very deep and expensive problem. He was able to hide it for quite a long time before it all came to light.
His dear wife has stood by him, although few of us would fault her for leaving. Her husband betrayed her trust and ruined their credit. They are in counseling now and will be for a very long time. He also attends a support group for men with sex addictions, run through LDS Family Services. That has been a great help to him. He has very strict limits on what he can do now (no internet, accounting for his time, etc.) in order to keep with his treatment plan. It is our hope as his family and friends that he, with his wife’s help, will be able to overcome this at some point in his life. But it is now something he has struggled with for many many years and is not in the least an easy thing to remedy.
My sister and I once went to a conference at BYU where Victor Klein spoke about this subject. He mentioned a case in which he had counseled with a man. He offered this man $20,000 (I think that’s the correct amount) if he could go one year without viewing porn. Through counseling and support, he made it for more than 360 days, and then relapsed. To me, that’s a pretty powerful habit.
My advice to anyone dating a porn addict would be to consider very prayerfully what you are doing. I am thrilled that in the case I am close to, the wife decided to stay with the husband – but if she would have known about it before they married I could not have faulted her one bit for running the other way as fast as she could. Pornography is not a victimless thing. People are affected in ways that you might not foresee. It would take a pretty powerful manifestation of the spirit for me to stay with someone who I was only dating if I were aware of this problem. A marriage, I think, is different. If this comes to light at that point (especially if there are now children in the picture) I would hope that most women would try to keep the relationship together and help the husband recover. That’s just my experience.
BTW, in my case, this problem was discovered about 4-5 years ago and it is still a day-to-day struggle. Of course I don’t ask about the progress every day, but I do know that he still attends the support group and still advises everyone he sees not to even ‘”take a peek”, lest you find yourself in deep.
Mark Kastlemann has some excellent books out on this topic as well. Drug of the New Millenium is very informative and interesting.
To LJ and Tracey,
First of all LJ, I feel your pain. When I started dating my boyfriend, he told me right away that he had been seeing the bishop for the past little while and was going through the repentance process. Things seemed to be going well and I even talked to his bishop and we were encouraged to continue as we were. I didn ?t know the details but he was honest and, like you described your boyfriend, I could tell that he was a good LDS guy ? in every way that I could see. The fact that he had gone to the bishop and had admitted what he had done said a lot to me. After we had been dating for about 2 months I decided that it might be time to find out more details and to see how he was doing. I found out that he had a pornography problem for a couple of years before his mission, and that it had begun to be a problem again after he got home. He said since he ?d been to the bishop he ?d felt so strong and determined and had no slips, although the temptation was still there. It really seemed like he was on the way to improvement.
I wish I could give you an answer, but instead I’ll just give you my story and suggest that you (with the help of Heavenly Father) come to a solution that will work for you. We continued to date because, just like you, I believe that everyone deserves a chance to be happy if they are constantly striving to be worthy of that happiness. He really seemed to be trying, and my rationale was: If he wasn’t sinning anymore, and he had repented and his bishop told him that he was worthy to go to the temple again, who was I to tell him that it wasn’t good enough or to judge him? So we continued to date, but eventually he slipped up ? more than once. At this point, we had been together for about 5 months and had actually started to make plans for a wedding (he had taken me to pick out a ring and everything). I was devastated. It was like everything we planned was suddenly yanked from us. And I also worried for him. By this point I was emotionally involved and loved him and didn ?t like the fact that he was putting himself in a situation where he was going to be denied blessings. It was just horrible in every way.
Tracy – Here is where I have a bit of a problem with your advice. I live by the law of chastity, dress modestly, respect my body and myself, and eventually want to marry a worthy priesthood holder in the temple. My boyfriend and I have not been immoral or “crossed the line”. However, I did stay with him when I found out about his slip ups. I found it very offensive that you would say that a young woman who has kept herself morally clean and has no feelings of shame, would not continue to date a young man once she found out that he had such a horrible and wanton addiction ?. There are many reasons why I girl might stay with someone who she knows is struggling with this. Some reasons may be better than others, but it ?s unfair for you to judge so harshly. Have you been in this situation yourself? When you get to know someone (even if it is only for a few months) and you start to care about them, you learn to separate the person from the problem. Ever heard of hate the sin, not the sinner ?? You can be with that person and think they have a horrible, destructive, filthy habit ?, but you also can see their good qualities (something I think we should all be striving to do as members of the church).
Yes, repentance does mean not committing the sin again, but I believe that if you have made a major life change (i.e., going from being addicted to pornography without remorse to having minor slip ups here and there with decreasing severity and talking to the bishop right away and continually repenting ? repentance is an ongoing process!) the Lord still recognizes your efforts. His bishop also agreed, and he was actually encouraged to go to the temple more regularly to gain more strength which he did. Who can look at a guy who is seeking help, talking to the bishop, receiving priesthood blessings, reading the scriptures and MOST IMPORTANTLY who has been deemed worthy to enter the Lord ?s house by his bishop ?who can look at this guy and NOT say that he is a good LDS guy ?? What person with any amount of love in their heart can watch someone they care about go through all of this can look at him and say Yeah he ?s trying, but I could find someone else without the baggage ?. I really hope with all of my heart that someone doesn ?t look at me, or you, or any of your children that way one day, because believe me, we ALL have baggage, and I would want someone to look at me for me, and my efforts, and not judge me solely on the basis of what I have done wrong in my life.
The fact that I kept dating him didn ?t mean that I was brushing it off ?. I researched every talk that I would find on the subject and shared them with him. We talked about how it was destructive and the different ways that pornography can ruin a relationship. We started reading scriptures together and just trying to work through it. We both realized how bad it was, but sin and Satan are real, and so even though he knew it was bad and wanted to stop, the slips kept happening. I would ask him periodically and he would always tell me. I know you said that chances are they are lying to you when they admit their slips, but he would give me details of the severity of the slip, how many days, what he was thinking and what had triggered it etc. Nothing was sugar coated, so if he was lying he sure chose to include a lot in his selective truth. Also, I don ?t think you can really assume that someone is lying, especially someone you ?re in a relationship with. There is potential for everyone to lie. I ?ve heard of worthy ? couples who have been married in the temple, and 10 years down the road the guy admits that he ?s been looking at pornography his whole life. No one really ever knows. You just have to trust the person, listen to the spirit, and hope for the best.
All that being said, fast forward to where I am right now, 9 months down the road ? the reason why I am searching this subject online and writing this lengthy comment. It has finally gotten the best of us ? No, we didn ?t break the law of chastity. I mean the problem itself has started to take its toll. There have been more slip-ups and an increased severity, resulting in less of a desire to try, and that is what finally did it. When I could see a genuine effort to improve, I could deal with it. I would pray every night to have the faith in repentance that was needed in order to forgive him of the past, and to be able to withstand the effects of the sin. I would pray for him to have the strength to avoid temptation, and to continue improving. That was the key: CONTINUE improving. Improvement sometimes takes a long time, but we were getting there inch by inch. We decided to put of all of the wedding plans and just focus on dealing with the problem, and that ?s what he was doing. But when he started to express a lack of desire to change, and started to get comfortable back in his old ways, THAT is what I couldn ?t take. THAT is when it becomes important to remind yourself of your self worth, because being in a relationship with someone who wants to sin is not respecting myself.
LJ, I don ?t know your exact situation, and whether or not you are still together with this boy, but here is what I would tell you. Go in and talk to his bishop together. Ask him his advice. He knows the severity of the situation and whether or not this guy should be dating right now. Talk to your boyfriend about the problem regularly. Do things to strengthen yourself so that you ?ll be able to deal with whatever happens. Pray, and also become informed. Learn how destructive this sin is so that you don ?t downplay it to him. Monitor the situation and watch your behavior ? it is possible that he may have different ideas about morality than you because of what he ?s been exposed to, so remind him of the church standards and their importance and let him know where you stand just in case. Then, just wait. Time will tell whether or not this is a genuine change and what should be done. I would not suggest forgetting about him completely, but I also would really urge you NOT to start planning to get married. I am so glad that I waited it out and that we didn ?t just say things are going alright, let ?s get married ?, because this problem does take time, and getting married will not solve it.
I have to tell you that unfortunately, there is not always a happy ending in these situations, but I have to believe that when the Saviour suffered the pain and temptation of even the worst of our sins, this was one of them so we (and those we love) are not alone. No sin is unforgivable, and no person is a lost cause. I am still not exactly sure what the future will hold for the boy that I mentioned and myself. Perhaps now is just not the right time, but maybe the relationship that we started to build now will eventually continue someday when he has REALLY dealt with the problem. Until then, I need to respect myself. You do the same.
Tracy, I am not trying to attack your comments, but please watch what you say. This is such a sensitive topic for a lot of girls and woman. To even suggest that these women are immoral or lack self-worth does not help. We just do the best we can in this life and each situation needs to be dealt with on an individual basis. Nothing is cut and dry, black and white with one simple solution. As sisters we need to support and love one another, not point fingers and suggest things that can make people feel worse. I doubt that that was intentional on your part, but PLEASE watch your words more carefully because they can hurt.
Best of luck to everyone who is struggling with this..
T
T, thanks for your honesty and I wish you the best as you get through this situation.
tc, welcome. It is so good to have such a thoughtful, personal perspective represented. I know you were looking for a specific topic, but I do hope you join us again. You have brought such a good balance of mercy and forgiveness with common sense and intelligent analysis. I would say one of the great weaknesses of women is that we often let our emotions utterly take over our brains. You are an exception and that it admirable.
T., thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with what you have said. This is not a cut-and-dried situation that can have generalized answers that will always work for everyone. I think you made a wise choice. The fact that you are aware that problems will not go away after marriage is also sooo critical. With the friends I have watched go through this, that point has been etched in my brain.
I think your example also illustrates that there are different degrees of this problem. There are men who lose temple privileges and such because of where they are and how severe things are. Not all porn problems are going to require forfeiture of temple privileges, etc., which I think is sometimes a misconception about this problem. Again, with at least one situation we are aware of, the husband never lost temple privileges or opportunities to serve. This isn’t a problem that always goes away in an instant. It’s often a process, and the key is which direction the process is going — forward or backward. And hearing now another example of a man who struggled, and was still deemed worthy because of his heart and desires was interesting to me (which is what happened to one of our friends).
Best to you, T.
I have not read this thread in its entirety. The one thing I would add is to keep in mind the effect that pornography has on the participant’s view of reality and how that could potentially affect the women he dates. I have been close to a number of women who were the spouses of men with pornography addictions to varying degrees and I, personally, would never even consider continuing a dating relationship with someone who had that particular issue. It just is one of those issues that I would never want to deal with. Most of the situations I have seen have not ended happily. That said, there is one man I know who suffered with this addiction, went through repentance and recovery and has done a great deal of good in helping other people. So . . . it can be done.
I just know that for me I would not choose to continue a relationship if I knew about it (and, yes, I say this from experience and I know how hard and heart breaking it is to find out after you have already begun to have feelings for someone).
Just my thoughts. Be very aware of what you may be choosing and the impact it could have on you, your future and the future of your children. Research shows that pornography literally alters the brain. Men addicted to pornography do not have an accurate view of women, and it often takes a very devastating toll on the women and daughters.
Best of luck to everyone . . .
Just my thoughts. Be very aware of what you may be choosing and the impact it could have on you, your future and the future of your children. Research shows that pornography literally alters the brain. Men addicted to pornography do not have an accurate view of women, and it often takes a very devastating toll on the women and daughters.
This is a key reason why marriage doesn’t change anything. The problem is not a need for sex, it’s a distorted view of women and sex, and having the need filled in ways that only perpetuate the wrong view and perspective and even brain chemistry/connections.
One more thing…one of the situations I know about it ended in a nightmare. I think she married him thinking she could fix him, that he could/would change. I wouldn’t recommend marrying someone unless it really is in the past, because like T experienced, so often it rears its ugly head and breaks hearts. And I’d hate to see a guy try really hard to get the girl and then stop caring once they get married. We are always on our bester behavior in courtship, right?
Have you ever tried watching it yourself, you know, maybe to understand him a little better? This might help you to connect with his way of thinking and then you can help him overcome it…….
Maybe if you are dating a drug addict, you should try that too, yanno, to understand. Or perhaps a serial killer? pedophile?
Really?
Hi LJ
and I hope that for your sake, you’ll feel as happy and as close as me and my boyfriend are now.
I don’t know if you’re still dating this guy but I just want to let you know I’m on the same boat with you. A lot of girls have been telling you to run, but you feel like you care enough for him to stay. I’ll tell you my story a bit to maybe give you a bit of the future.
I met a home schooled 19 year old when I was 17. We became friends and decided to date. at first we were both so shy, and I’d never slept with anyone before… so I made him wait as much as possible. and I guess he didn’t mind because it was his first time too.
After we’d been together for 4 months, his secrets began to spill and I found out some shocking, insane, details about his past. His parents know he’s a porn addict and they are christian, but I’m not so much into that faith. they’ve done their best to protect him, and I’ve tried my best to too. He doesn’t do “other things” like what Tracy had said. He’s addicted to the pictures, and has looked at every porn known to man.
My boyfriend has hurt me emotionally a few times. he’s made up story’s too, and that’s one that’s hurt me the most. I’ve lost friends, and I refuse to tell my mother myself. It’s not easy. I’ve dealt with his problems for the first year or our relationship. It was awful and haunting but I’m starting to forget. because, my boyfriend is realizing he’s hurt me, wants to protect us all from it. And you’re new boyfriend will try to force things on you, but most likely regret it majorly later. it will happen im sure but you just need to look him in the eyes and say NO. I’ve had a series of time when my boyfriend isn’t himself anymore. He turns into a completely different person and he has horrible dreams about me and other people too. I feel so bad for him but I’ve stayed with him through this crap, and after losing friends I realized weren’t my true friends.. he’s really stood out and is always there for me. He’s done so much for me and regrets a great deal.
This past month I’ve spent with him I’ve felt like I finally know the real him. No more depression, he’s been clean. and I STRONGLY ADVISE that you get him to see an expert. because he will look at things and not tell you the truth, cause he’s afraid he’ll loose you in the mist of it.
His parents know I’ve dealt with horrible things he’s done, and luckily for me, they are wonderful people. So, I’m hoping that your boyfriends parents or your own could be the same. because my boyfriends cousin, they were really close.. had the same problem. My boyfriend has enormous guilt because he showed his cousin and feels he got him addicted. My boyfriends cousin committed suicide and deals with his loss everyday. I’d never thought it could be so serious… believe me it will be painful. but I’m so happy with him right now I finally feel no reason to leave because I’ve helped him through his depression and guilt. and I would do it all over again just the same. So I hope that with whatever choice you make, you understand that he’s a person in serious trouble and needs to be helped because he can’t do it on his own. and if you really feel like not staying with him, than just let him off easy and say you’ll still be there for him. help him get help
Have a happy life and be responsible
I think that we are in a huge predicament these days. I do not want to over shadow the fine points that were made in the first post about him not really being sober, because I think she is right, and I do not want to down play the realities of having a porn addicted spouse. However, the realities of our day are that men in our faith have a significant problem with this, and the likely hood of finding somebody who doesn’t who is not either a recent convert or a non member are slim. I think if you want to get involved with somebody like this though you need to educate yourself on the problem, learn about addiction, learn about the effects of porn, learn about treatments that are affective, and understand that this is an addiction exactly like being addicted to crack but will affect you as his spouse in a more cutting manor. However, we all believe in the Atonement and if he is serious about getting help then after all that he can do we know he can be helped in this life and possible healed. I would start your research by looking at the website Porn Harms, and reading the talk “We are all Enlisted” that you can find on SALifeline.org
Good luck!
Hello, I have recently gotten a divorce from a man who is addicted. He has been addicted since he was 7 years old. He and I had the exact same conversation while we were engaged. He was “sober” for a few months with a few “slip ups”. I believed him and we gotten married in the Kona, Hawaii Temple.
2 months later things went south. He confessed in watching Porn again almost daily. He did the whole song and dance crying, pleading me to forgive him and to give him another chance. I believed in him and that he can change so I stuck with him. This happened about 5 times, and two of those times he packed up his bags and said that he needed a few days to think because he isn’t sure if he wanted to stay married to me anymore. Sex was never good. He even told me that he would think about the porn during sex with me. That broke my heart. He became critical of my body, really gotten to be verbally and emotionally abusive.
Last February I asked him point blank if he’s been watching porn that week. He looked at me right in the eyes and said “Yes” only this time was different. There was no remorse, no sorrow, no tears, nothing. His eyes was just dark. I then asked him if he wanted to change and he said that it’s too hard. I asked him if he wanted to stay married and he again looked me in the eye with no emotion and said “no”. I packed my stuff, moved out. 3 months later we were divorced. He never begged for me to come back, never really made any real changes to show that he is serious about fixing his addiction.
Scientist has found that for a person who is addicted to porn needs 2 years of NO porn watching (and that includes no slip-ups at all) for his brain to go back to normal.
I love my ex-husband so much, that is why I left him. To save him, and to save me.
Basically I’m saying, if the man you are dating is addicted, the BEST thing you can do is walk away. Tell him that you love him enough to leave him alone because alone is the ONLY way a man can ever change. No girlfriend or wife will ever be enough to change him. He needs help, he needs professional help, and he needs to understand that you deserve a husband that is FREE from that horrible dark addiction. You deserve your first marriage to be done right with no darkness brought in because of his addiction. 10 years is a long time. My ex was addicted for 20 years and he still is. It’s not as simple as 3 months of no porn then he’ll be fixed…he needs years and years of professional help. If you don’t care about your well-being, then think of your future children. No child should be in a home of an addicted father. In fact that is how my ex started his addiction. His father is addicted as well. Don’t pass on that horrible addiction. Love your future children enough to date and marry a man that is free from any sinful addiction.
Good Luck.
I appreciate many of the comments here. They are the same I’ve tried to desperately convey to my own “LJ”. What Tracy had to say was spot on, other than the fact that it seems you don’t always lose many of your privileges as far as the church goes, apparently. Not only does my daughter have her very messed up boyfriend wining and dining her, she also has his mother, carefully leading down to hell with her son by trying to convince her that she should “allow him the atonement” and trying to convince her that all the guys out there are as messed up as her son. Satan has no need to whisper in her ear when she has this woman.
Yes, I do acknowledge it’s a significant problem with many men. HOWEVER, do we believe that the Lord speaks through his servants as His mouthpiece? If you do, this is what He has said on the topic:
Be a Young Man of Virtue
The girl you marry can expect you to come to the marriage altar absolutely clean. She can expect you to be a young man of virtue in thought and word and deed.
I plead with you boys tonight to keep yourselves free from the stains of the world. You must not indulge in sleazy talk at school. You must not tell sultry jokes. You must not fool around with the Internet to find pornographic material. You must not dial a long-distance telephone number to listen to filth. You must not rent videos with pornography of any kind. This salacious stuff simply is not for you. Stay away from pornography as you would avoid a serious disease. It is as destructive. It can become habitual, and those who indulge in it get so they cannot leave it alone. It is addictive.
It is a five-billion-dollar business for those who produce it. They make it as titillating and attractive as they know how. It seduces and destroys its victims. It is everywhere. It is all about us. I plead with you young men not to get involved in its use. You simply cannot afford to.
The girl you marry is worthy of a husband whose life has not been tainted by this ugly and corrosive material.
-Gordon B. Hinckley
Men, are you becoming the kind of person who could ask a girl to take a chance on you?
Men, as your aunt who will now speak plainly to you, I hope you understand that there is no worthy woman who will be charmed by dirty laundry, unpleasant habits, or a sloppy appearance. Yes, a righteous woman will love you for what is in your mind and heart, but she would very much appreciate your sincere efforts to display good manners and thoughtfulness to her. You should also know that there is no mate who will cheerfully overlook selfishness. Please remember that there are no righteous daughters of God who will willingly tolerate a pornography habit in the young men they date and marry. In fact, if a young woman has any hint that a young man she is interested in is involved in pornography in any of its forms, I would tell her to consider it as a flashing red light, which means “stop this relationship.”Now is your season to develop righteous and respectful habits and Christlike qualities that will bless your future marriage and family.
Julie B. Beck
Certainly I am in agreement with the Lord that my daughter, the apple of my eye, deserves so much more. It is one of the most heartbreaking situations I’ve ever been in and every day I pray that she sees the light before she makes the biggest mistake of her life by marrying this guy.
Mother of an LJ – so sorry you are facing this difficult situation – it is painful from any angle. I love that quote from Sister Beck. That’s a new one to me.
Read jennycherie’s amazing Fear 101
Mother of an LJ, thanks so much for your contribution. What a great talk! I found the link, in case anyone wants to read the entire thing:
Unlocking the Door to the Blessings of Abraham
Read Alison Moore Smith’s amazing Alternative Wedding Ring Metals
I didn’t have time to read all of these comments…although the ones I read had a lot of good points. I find myself in the same position as you LJ. I have been dating this guy for a year and a half. He has a pornography addiction. I am not as naive to the subject as I was prior to this relationship, but I still don’t know as much as I’d like to, and I dont think the people speaking on this page have an idea either. I agree that the fact that he can’t be clean for very long isn’t exactly reassuring, and can be a major red flag, but this is YOUR decision. Stop listening to the people on this page, or your friends, or your mother. Talk to your heavenly father and he will guide you in the right direction. If this young man can get his life in order and become clean and take you to the temple, GREAT. But the problem does not end there. I just need you to be informed and aware of the fact that if you choose to pursue this relationship, it is a HARD road you are choosing. It will not be easy, and you must be a strong person to go through that life with him. You must stand by his side, love him, live your life worthily, and hope that he will do the same. But again, this is you and the lords decision. Don’t let outside influences make you think otherwise. I have decided to marry my boy, and I know it won’t be easy. But I know that we are both working as hard as we can to be clean and pure so we can marry in the temple. If that changes anytime between now and our temple date and I see him struggling more than before, I will not continue to date him. As long as their is progression, and hard work. I have a question for every person on this page speaking…Are you saying that any person that has ever had an issue with pornography should never have the sweet joy of marriage and raising a family together? Are they bound to live of sad and lonely life because they are men with natural man desires that they succumbed too? In no way can their sins be justified are perceived as an “okay, no big deal” situation. But I also don’t believe that they should be doomed to a life of misery and loneliness. I believe the atonement is real. And Heavenly Father will help you in this decision. Make sure their is progression or I would advise you to run. If you do stay, be strong. Stand by his side, and love him.
anonymous girl, I love advice that advises not to listen to advise. Of course, your advice is the exception.
“Are you saying that any person that has ever had an issue with pornography should never have the sweet joy of marriage and raising a family together? Are they bound to live of sad and lonely life because they are men with natural man desires that they succumbed too? In no way can their sins be justified are perceived as an “okay, no big deal” situation. But I also don’t believe that they should be doomed to a life of misery and loneliness. I believe the atonement is real”
Anonymous girl, you said you didn’t read all the other advise given…. but if you had, you’d have realized that no one said anything even close to what you said in the above paragraph.
Allison- I just got the vibe that everyone was telling her to run from this guy. I never told her that that decision, or the other, was what she should do. Because it’s HER decision. No one else’s. I merely told her my story in hopes that she would make a good decision that was good for her.
Tracey- then what is everyone saying on this page? “If I was completely wrong and you’re relationship with this man is totally innocent, then keep it that way and call it off.” (first comment on page) No one knows the situation personally, and I just feel the second anyone hears “porn addiction” they tell that person to run from that man, no matter what. Regardless of any effort or progress that man might have attained. My boyfriend still struggles. But He has been clean from it for a six months, is going to the meeting every week, meeting with bishop and stake president every week, and doing the best he can. I’m not saying he is sober, and never going to slip up again, but I know he is trying and doing his best. If that were to change, and I saw him stop trying, THEN I could understand people’s input advising me to break it off. I just wanted to make the point clear that judging someone before understanding the full situation is wrong.
I think the main point is just to be very careful in this situation. While I don’t discount a 6-month recovery as progress, do realize that it is typical for those who struggle with this problem to relapse. Someone close to me started with this problem as a teenager, then was able to distance himself long enough to serve a mission and marry in the temple, only to fall back into it as a married man with children. It nearly cost him his family and many other things. Thankfully, his dear wife has forgiven him and stood by his side through his recovery, but it is still a day-to-day struggle for him and he is very open about sharing his experience with others and encouraging others to stay away from this because it is difficult to get away from it for good. This is after a lot of therapy and I’m sure a lot of grief in trying to repair his marriage and family. So, while I think you are right to say that each situation is different and you need to make your decision through prayer, you also need to be realistic as to what is ahead of you and that this is going to be an ongoing battle for a long time. I might have typed this already somewhere in the thread (don’t have the time to go back and read it) but I was at a conference once where Victor Cline and he said that he offered 1 man a large amount of money (I think $10,000) if he could go a period of time (I believe a year….it’s been awhile, my memory fades) without viewing porn, and he made it up until a day or two before the deadline and then faltered. It’s that powerful. Just be careful. This person close to me now has very severe restrictions (has to check in with the wife often, cannot have internet access at home unless his wife is in the same room, etc.) Not a fun life trying to get over this.
I appreciate your response. I don’t believe it needs to be rude or condescending like some of the other ones I have received. So Thank you. I do disagree though with one thing. Six months is definitely progress. In no way is he healed or recovered, but that is definite progress and true effort that I have seen on his part. Now I am very aware that this isn’t an addiction that you overcome, and then it never creeps back into your life. In my above comments I stated the fact that I do know this will be a hard road. But I also believe that through the atonement he can be healed, and we can attempt for a Christ-like, gospel oriented life as does any other couple. I have made my decision and I intend to stay with it unless I see a lack of desire to be healed, or him discontinuing his progression. And in my eyes, I believe that is the important thing. The effort, and improvement. And I am fully aware of possible relapses, or “slip ups” for I have had to endure them already. My best friends husband cheated on her and left her due to his pornography issue. My brother in law molested me because of his porn addiction, and almost destroyed my entire family. So I am not exactly naive to the possible outcomes, or to the addiction itself. I literally HAVE to be realistic with the things I have already seen destroyed to this horrible issue. The difference between my boyfriend and these men, is his progression. I’m not saying he is going to be perfect, but I love him and I know he is going to fight this. With the lords help he can be healed. And I love him enough to fight this battle with him, and stand by his side like so many others have yet to do for someone with his problem. I find that so sad that a man offered so much money couldn’t even last a few days. It literally breaks my heart that something so evil can ruin the best of people. I just hope and pray for every individual who faces this problem can eventually overcome it.
Good luck to you. I might have worded that strangely, but I do think the progress he is making is a good thing. Unfortunately, progress is a not a cure, and I am glad that you realize how damaging this can be and how years can go by and still a relapse can occur. The fact that he is talking to you about it and not hiding it is a good sign that he is serious.
Yeah I think so too. Thanks for your input and advice, it was needed
Anonymous– what you quoted me saying doesn’t have anything to do with what you said. You’re conflating two different issues and points. I suggested she call off the relationship. But advising her to call off the relationship is NOT the same thing as saying the guy “should never have the sweet joy of marriage and raising a family” like you suggested I was saying. Advising her to call off the relationship is NOT saying that the guy is “bound to live a sad and lonely life”. Nor does it “doom” him to “a life of misery and loneliness”. And certainly no one ever suggested that the atonement isn’t real. If you go back and REALLY READ what I said, you’ll notice that in addition to suggesting that she end the relationship, I also said this: “Does Heavenly Father want him to be happy? Of course! Does Heavenly Father want this young man to do as you said and get married and have a family? Of course he does…. eventually, after he’s fully repented.” Later in the same post, I said ” Someone who has repented is clean before the Lord. He remembers it no more. That’s the miracle of forgiveness. And there are plenty of people who have truly repented of sexual sin and were then worthy to marry in the temple”. At no point did I or anyone else that I recall for that matter, suggest for one second that someone who’s been addicted to porn can’t be healed and forgiven, and should spend the rest of eternity miserable, lonely and single.
The point was simply that happiness comes AFTER repentance. The “sweet joy of marriage” as you put it can only come AFTER he’s fully repented and COMPLETELY forsaken the sin. Not partially, not most of the time, not for the few days before and after a Bishop’s interview, not for 3 months, not 6 months– but entirely. An addict isn’t considered “recovered” after only 6 months. That is still in the early stages of recovery– and even then, those 6 months have to be completely FREE of relapse. Saying “I only messed up once in 6 months” means the person has NOT been clean/sober for 6 months. They’ve only been clean/sober since the day AFTER they last gave in. Now, sure, if the person was looking at porn EVERYDAY, then only looking at it ONCE in 6 months would certainly be a major improvement, but they couldn’t say they’ve been “sober” for 6 months. If in the past 6 months they “messed up” once on Oct. 5th, then if they are being honest, not only with others, but with themselves, then they can only say they’ve been “clean” for 42 days. If they say “I’ve been clean for 6 months– well, I messed up once, but other than that, I’ve been clean for 6 months” then they’re deceiving themselves.
To Anonymous Girl: Yes, you are entitled to personal revelation and indeed you have your agency to decide whom you will marry. However, it would be a huge mistake to overlook the advice of those who love you, including your parents, friends, prophets and church leaders. I know you have dealt with some sad circumstances that have opened your eyes to some things, but unfortunately when people are in relationships, as Tracy pointed out, their vision is skewed by the circumstances of the relationship. Maybe she wasn’t describing your situation exactly, but she was definitely describing my daughter’s to a T. Tracy was saying, in other words, just what Sister Beck had said: Get out of a relationship with someone who is dealing with a pornography problem. A righteous daughter of God wouldn’t tolerate such a thing. As a mother, it is heart breaking to have a daughter who is willing to tolerate that (and there is more, but to put it all out there would give too much identifying information). I’d be willing to bet that your parents would grieve your decision to be involved with a young man with that problem. They might know that pornography is like a nuclear bomb to a person’s brain, and they want their dear daughter to not have to deal with all of the fallout that too often results from it. I’m not sure if you read my post, but I quote our church leaders because you can’t argue with God. You said that LJ shouldn’t listen to her mom or others. What does the Lord say about that?
“In making a decision as momentous as whom to marry, I suggest you seek the help of your parents. Take the time to confide in them for they will not leave you or forsake you. They love you dearly and want for a precious daughter or stalwart son the best in life and the ultimate promise of eternity”. _President Thomas S. Monson
It is important to have family and friends on our side and supportive of the upcoming marriage, Elder Richard L. Evans (1906–71) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles advised. “Don’t let this choice [of a marriage partner] ever be made except with earnest, searching, prayerful consideration, confiding in parents, [and] in faithful, mature, trustworthy friends.” 14 Loving parents who genuinely want the best for us, and “faithful, mature, trustworthy friends,” can often act as a sounding board and counsel us on how best to proceed.
From: Choosing and Being the Right Spouse, Ensign 2002
Sometimes when we are “in love”, we can’t see the forest for the trees, as emotion rules us. Those around us can see more clearly at times. Your parents DO want you to eventually marry and they DO want your happiness. If they are giving you advice, don’t blow it off, because the Lord knows that sometimes you won’t listen to His voice when it’s not what you really want to hear.
Well said “mother”.
Your point about how being IN the relationship skews a persons view, allowing emotion to rule over TRUTH is spot on. And LJ’s initial question and story proves that. Her post is FILLED with self-deceit. She’s lying to herself. She’s so caught up in the emotion of the relationship that she’s lying to herself (and others), and blinding herself to the truth.
I’ll point out a couple very obvious examples. And “anonymous” I hope you’re still reading– because I think you may have missed the several times that LJ “lied to herself” right here in print– the examples are outright and obvious, but she was completely blind to them.
LJ said: “he’s been sober for three months now with only a couple of slip-ups”
Sober, in this context means FREE of the problem. But if he’s had “slip-ups” then that means he has NOT been free of the problem. She’s trying to use words to make it SOUND like he’s sober, but the end on her own comment proves that he’s not. She’s deceiving herself.
LJ said: “I’d ask my mom, but I don’t want to cloud her perception of him with his past mistakes.”
But that’s EXACTLY what she’s doing– she WANTS to cloud her mother’s perception of him. She’s purposely not telling her mother the TRUTH, so that her mother WON’T KNOW he has this problem. She’s trying to give her mother a FALSE perception of him– that he’s a morally straight guy. That’s the very DEFINITION of “clouding” her mother’s perception– but LJ is saying she’s trying NOT to cloud her mother’s perception. She’s TOTALLY lying to herself— and her mother— and us. She’s didn’t realize that of course– but that’s EXACTLY the point that “mother of an LJ” was making. She “can’t see the forest for the trees”. She’s blinding herself and hiding from the truth.
You all make great points. This is a hard topic for me because it does hit close to home – although for me the person with this problem is the man who is struggling. It’s tough for me to say that I wish his wife would have seen the red flags and run the other way – certainly she would have saved herself a lot of heartache had she done so. And yet, I know this man has a good heart and is trying his best to eradicate this from his life. He’s father to 5 children that he is raising in the gospel and as I said he now has very strict restrictions as to what he can do with his free time. So while I would not fault her if she had left the relationship (when she was dating him and found out he had struggled with this…or several years later when she found out he was again involved in it) I personally am glad that she stayed because it helped make him a better person and to deal with this addiction head on finally instead of skirting around it as he had for so many years. Bottom line, I just think it is sickening that people expose very young children to this filth and create an addiction that is very, very hard to break. The person close to me is a fantastic individual – first exposed at approximately 10-12 years old, “clean” for many years, and then back into the throes again. It’s tough. I’m glad someone loves him and stuck with him. I don’t get day to day updates, but as far as I know he is clean again for several years now…but like I said it is a battle. I know he still has restrictions on his computer use and such. No fun.
I totally understand what you’re saying Angie. And it’s a valid point. Having support and people standing by you is always a good thing.
However, I think it’s important to stress, and I’m pretty sure you agree, that those things– being supportive and ‘standing by” someone doesn’t have to mean romantic involvement.
I would hope for example, that a young woman in the position of LJ or “anonymous” who’s so “sure” that this is the guy, could see the wisdom in putting a hold on the relationship. Detach themselves, even temporarily, to give the other person the SPACE to REALLY WORK on themselves and their relationship with the SAVIOR. How much of their time is spent on the relationship? A romantic relationship that likely feeds their sensual desires? It’s very possible that for every time the girl is trying to be an influence for good, they’re also serving as a temptation for sin. When you’re dealing with someone who has a pornography addiction, you’re dealing with someone who is obsessed with lustful thoughts and actions– so much so that they become a SLAVE to those thoughts and actions and can’t control them. So it’s very possibly if not likely, that a romantic relationship just serves as fuel to the fire. Hugs, kisses and cuddling
very likely just cause them to have EXACTLY the thoughts they’re trying to rid themselves of.
Here’s an interesting thought. A lot of therapists would say that to REALLY call yourself “sober” from an addiction, it takes at LEAST a good year and half to two years of being “clean” — (and that means NO slip-ups). Heck, in that time, the girl could go on a mission! What better example could she possibly be? Supportive letters of true Christlike love and concern for his spiritual well-being while sharing her testimony and experiences of seeing the change in people’s lives as they repent and come to Christ would probably help him more than she could ever know. She’s out serving the Lord, becoming a tower of strength and testimony, while he’s back home working on becoming a man worthy of her, who can take her to the temple.
What happens for HIM in the time she’s gone would prove whether or not he’s really the one.
— Just a thought on what she COULD be doing, instead of waiting around waiting for him to become what she hopes for him to be.
Grrr…just lost a whole reply to your post Tracy and don’t have the time to do it again. I love the mission idea. In a nutshell…the problem I see is that many people with this addiction are able to go a period of time “clean” only to relapse again later. The person close to me did have periods of abstinence during his approximately 20 year battle (so far)….long enough to go on a mission, marry in the temple, etc. The key as far as what I can see is taking the secrecy out of it and, unfortunately, almost having someone babysit them. Now that his wife is aware (she had been aware that he had struggled with this as a teenager, but didn’t know he was involved in it again until she caught him after they had been married for several years and had children) she has been instrumental in helping with his recovery, including attending therapy sessions and monitoring his computer use. Interestingly, part of the recovery from this is actually feeding a healthy sexual relationship. Anyway, don’t have much time right now but I just wanted to say that I would rather be married to the man who has this problem and is open with me about it, than to be married to the guy who is hiding it. And a LOT of men (even LDS men) are hiding it. Ideally, you will find someone without the problem AT ALL, but those men are becoming rare, even in the church. I haven’t seen statistics but I know it must be a high percentage involved in porn or we wouldn’t hear about it so much from our church leaders.
P.S. I do also want to state for the record that I don’t condone the behavior at all – just because a of people do it does not mean it’s okay. I also realize there is a huge difference in knowing about this before you marry someone and after you’ve made the commitment and had children with them. Generally, I would tell girls to run the other way if they find that someone they are dating has this issue. I just see both sides, as someone I love as struggled with this. By the time you are at a stage in your relationship that you are intimate enough to share something this personal about yourself with the person you are seeing, you very well may see the good in this person and their progress enough to know that they can make it with your help. That’s a good time for a mission, I agree!
I agree except you insisting that the guy is deceiving her and that he is definitely doing other sins. While it may be probable that he is doing porn & masturbation, it doesn’t mean he’s getting doing more than that.
I think it is more helpful to talk about the actual problems of the porn, not imagine additional fictional sins. And he could be being honest about his porn use and willing to admit to slip ups.
It can be very difficult to be a girlfriend/wife of a guy with a porn problem. You could discuss that. Also, the years of porn use will affect the guy in a negative way….how he views women and how he views sex.
Finally, if he’s had the problem for 10 years he might have been very young when introduced to it. That is a significant fact that gives us compassion for his problem rather than just talking about it being a sin, but it doesn’t change the very real side effects of years of porn use and if he is addicted how to deal with that addiction for the rest of his life.
jks – you said, “I agree except you insisting that the guy is deceiving her and that he is definitely doing other sins.”
Who said this? Where? I am not seeing it, especially not in the recent discussion.
Read jennycherie’s amazing Fear 101
And *I* agree– except I didn’t “insist” or say that he’s “definately” doing other sins. My exact words were “IF he’s doing that, then it’s LIKELY that he’s been committing several other sins of immorality with other people.” I didn’t say “definately” .
You have to remember two things about the time line here— she said he’d been addicted for 10 years, and she’d only been dating him for 2 months. Surely there were other girlfriends before her in that 10 years. With his past, there was a very good chance that things had gone too far with some of them.
” And he could be being honest about his porn use and willing to admit to slip ups.”
Yes, he COULD. But again, it’s unlikely. The chances are against it. Typically, they WILL admit “a little here” , “a little there”, because they KNOW you already know. So they’ll say things like “Well, I’ve been trying really hard–it’s been 6 weeks and I only messed up a couple times.” When really, they may have “slipped” once a week — which would be 6 times, not 2.
And I said what I said for a reason– I’m not just making up random, additional, “fictional” sins. You don’t have to take my word for it– a 2 minute conversation with any Bishop or therapist would reveal that my statement is accurate. Is it possible that every now and then “other sins” don’t accompany pornography? Of course. It’s just highly improbable- especially as time increases. The longer the person has the addiction the further into depravity they sink. One sin leads to another. So if you’re talking about someone who’s just begun to look at porn, then yeah, “looking” may be the only thing that’s happening. But 10 years? The chances are extremely slim if even barely existent.
Now, I’m not sure what “more” you meant by “While it may be probable that he is doing porn & masturbation, it doesn’t mean he’s doing more than that.”
I was talking about sexual sins within real relationships and not just from computer images.
I understand your point about having compassion– and I agree. BUT, this wasn’t a blog post about HOW people get addicted to porn, or about having compassion for people caught in sin. Of COURSE we should have compassion. But that wasn’t the direction I was trying to take my response. A girl wrote in asking for opinions about her decision to seek a future with a man who has a 10 year addiction problem with porn. I was answering her question and telling her the different reasons why I thought she shouldn’t pursue the relationship, and honestly, I was more worried about HER and her reasoning for doing so– that was my focus.
“Should never”? I don’t know. All I know is that for me it’s a deal breaker. And I’d tell my own children they should NOT marry someone who is/has been a porn addict, a drug addict, a pimp, a convicted felon, a homosexual,
a registered democrat,a liar, a cheat, or an abuser.I’m more worried about the “sweet joy of marriage” for the person who is NOT all of the above. And, statistically, someone marrying someone with such “issues” is far more likely to NOT have the “sweet joy of marriage” than someone who comes to the table with less serious problems.
Look, anonymous, you seem to think your fiancé’s “progress” is enough to warrant choosing the road you admit won’t be easy. So be it. I wish you the best. I just wish more women knew that there were plenty of great guys out there who aren’t yearning to go snatch off in from of a silicone hussy. They don’t need to settle for that future. (And, no, there really aren’t any great qualities you could enlighten me with that would offset the porn issue.)
I kind of hope you won’t bring kids into that time bomb until he’s been certified “sober” for a decade — so they don’t have to go through the drama you’re choosing — but, obviously, I don’t get to decide. Do realize that “addicts” of any kind are expert liars. That’s another great quality to bring to marriage.
This post was published years ago, but here’s something more recent:
Three arrested on child porn charges in Utah County
What’s the big deal? Oh, nothing. Except that the guy pictured is a returned missionary who married about a year ago — in the temple. I was his mom’s visiting teacher and helped set up their wedding dinner.
He had a “porn problem” before his mission and then “got clean.” One day searched out “small boobs” and eventually ended up with kiddie porn.
I had a friend in Eagle Mountain whose husband is now on the sex offender registry — for soliciting sex with a minor (who happened to be a police decoy named “Butchie”). He had a “porn problem” too.
LOL That’s one way to look at it. But, yea, choices have consequences. And sometimes the consequences are, “I don’t want to deal with all that baggage the rest of my life.”
Besides, there are plenty of women out there willing to take a chance on these guys. (Just look at the death row inmates getting married!) My daughters don’t have to sign up for it.
Read Alison Moore Smith’s amazing Why I Do Not School-at-Home
You said it, Allison!
Oh Alison– you kill me. I got to the lined-out “registered democrat” and just about fell off my chair laughing.
You DO however bring up a valid point– just how FAR into depravity porn can lead. I’ll have to see if I can find the study again– (I’ve actually researched this quite a bit several years ago, because as I pointed out– we’ve had this issue in our extended family too. A person addicted to porn since youth, supposedly “overcoming” it, but never really did, getting married in the temple and sexually abusing his 2 year old until she was 5 and old enough to say something about it to her mother. When the mother confronted the father, he ADMITTED it to her. There’s your “truth” here and there. But, he said it only happened “a couple times”. No– after several interviews with police, they learned from the little girl that it happened frequently over 3 years, and when the police were able to present him with the details from the girl that proved that it went alot further than he claimed, and happened much more frequently, he admitted it– and when they wanted to do STD testing, he confessed he COULD have one, since he’d also been soliciting prostitutes.) — anyway, there have been studies that show how addiction to pornorgraphy is like the “starter drug” that can lead to other sexual perversions.
Just as the children of alcoholics blame the inanimate substance in the bottle for the behavior of their otherwise “good” parent(s), many new wives blame the inanimate video screen for the behavior of their otherwise “good” spouse.
That being said there is not one wife on this message board who’s husband does not view other women “sexually”. PERIOD. The only variable. . . is *depth*.
This may explain the high importance many Mormon men profess to hold for “pretty faces” as the face is one of the least covered feminine portions of a woman’s body that are commonly revealed even with strict Mormon dress, but I digress. . .
The issue here is not PORN nor PORN ADDICTION, it is a MASTURBATION HABIT. It was usually brought into the relationship from long before the relationship’s beginning. The issue of its continuance into the relationship is simply a matter of habit. The male who has been using masturbation for “relief” of sexual hormonal urges finds it difficult both to give up the “on demand” nature of his previous relief method. Its that simple. He’s built up a habit of needing to vent the urge just like he needs to urinate. It doesn’t go away until “taken care of”. Its the same with women, it just takes them a week to a month to get the same insatiable urge. (ahem *healthy* women.)
From the man’s perspective the couple isn’t having sex enough, from the woman’s perspective, his demands from a horny 13 year old twice – a day masturbation champion are unrealistic.
They’re both right. Mix in a COMPROMISE, and welcome yourself to marriage. (meaning GROW UP! BOTH OF YOU!, this should take all of 1 hour to solve including the makeup sex.)
Stepping down off of soap box.