It’s more than a little personal. It’s what I grew up with. I got bullied every single week at church from just a few weeks after I started kindergarten (when “Bob” moved into my ward), until I was a teenager. I got bullied until the day I realized that I didn’t have to put up with it and I refused to go back to church.
In my case, it was mostly Bob and those he rallied to silence if not to his side. But sometimes it was the girls, doing the “girl thing.” You know, inviting everyone else to join the Clique Claque Club or passing notes about how they didn’t want to be my friend anymore. Probably nothing out of the ordinary. And eventually one of the moms made them invite me to join the club. Probably after seeing me sit on the grass a few doors down staring longingly at the house during every weekly meeting. (How did I always know when and where the meeting was held?) Mostly it was that even my “gang” of friends never defended me from the Gang of Bob.
Yes, I got it from the same group at school, but for some reason I expected it there. At church, it was a constant source of confusion. The lessons we got, the answers they gave. The disconnect between knowing and doing was like the chasm in the Grand Canyon. Even the simple things like, “Be nice to the chubby girl with red hair and glasses at school” suddenly got really complex when the girl was sitting next to you in Senior Sunday School.
As far as I could tell, everyone knew. Bob wasn’t very slick in his methods of torment. I had rocks thrown at my head at the bus stop. Names like “fatso,” “four eyes,” “fireball,” “ugly” occurred about as often as I was within 18 feet of him. And he didn’t whisper. If he had to pass something to me, he would act nauseated. If he passed me in the hall I would get tripped or kicked or at least have some really hilarious insult thrown my way.
Then there were things like the pronouncement in front of the entire fourth grade when I was up to kick during the grade-wide kickball tournament that “Me and the boys all know you wear a bra, so don’t try to hide it anymore!!!” Not the biggest deal now, with my full C cup. But horrifying to the nine-year-old who was only the second girl in the grade to bear the signs of maturation. (My full sumpathy goes out to Jill, who was the first.)
Or maybe the declaration that he’d rather miss the dance festival altogether than have to dance with me. (How in the world could the teacher have paired us up out of 100+ kids?) Then, when he didn’t show up and I had to sit on the curb, partnerless, during the festival we’d rehearsed two months for, he told everyone his family went on vacation that week just to prevent him from having the absolute humiliation of having to touch my hand during the Virginia Reel.
You know, stuff like that. For seven years straight. Until we got to junior high and the school was big enough that I could avoid him a good deal of the time during the week if I planned a careful, convoluted path to class and as long as I was careful on the walk home.
When I decided never to go back to church where avoiding him was still impossible and face the hours of crap-under-the-auspices-of-gospel-learning, my very bright mother (who had tried to deal with the problem over the years) convinced me to go to class with my big sister. I did, for almost a year. The kids, all four years older, were so nice. At least that’s my recollection. Truth is, the fact that they said, “hello” instead of “hi ugly pig” meant, to me, that they were an amazing group.
When I was baptized and was going to be confirmed and presented to the ward, I pretended to be sick. I was sure that when they asked for the sustaining to accept me into the ward, that Bob would vote to reject me.
The autumn day that he was sustained as a deacon I was stunned. Behavior had nothing to do with it and I realized that no matter what he did, he would continue to move up the ranks, but I because I was a girl could not. I was hopeless even to God.
When I learned they were going to split our ward when I was in junior high school, I prayed every night that, somehow, he could be in the other ward. And when it happened, I sat there on the folding chair in the back of the cultural hall and cried.
Later when I lived briefly in my “home ward” after college, I was attending a teachers’ fireside when an adult (who had been one of my teachers) briefly acknowledged some of the things that had happened.
Five years ago when I created the web site for our 20th high school reunion, one boy who had grown up in my ward wrote in his bio that he had stopped playing the piano because Bob had teased him so mercilessly about it. I privately responded, “Wow. You stopped playing piano. I competed in beauty pageants.” The ex-piano player responded that he was sorry for what I had gone through and any part he had played.
The treatment, apparently, wasn’t a secret.
So, why did it go on so long, completely unchecked? I have no answer for that.
In light of my experience, and realizing that I haven’t figured this out at all, I’d still like to share a couple of situations that I saw clearly resolved by strong leaders. Perhaps you can learn from their wisdom as I did.
In Florida I served in Young Women. Our Laurel class had about 18 girls, I think. Approximately four were various Hispanic, eight were Haitian, the rest were Caucasian. Amber and I started noticing some self-imposed segregation among the girls and it got more and more distinct. Then they started speaking in different languages so that the other girls couldn’t understand.
I was fussing and fuming and worrying and fasting and praying and giving special lessons and messages to help the girls “understand” stuff they already completely understood and were conversant about.
Finally Amber took matters into her own hands. She walked into class one Sunday and said, “What is this??? Black. Brown. White.” she said, pointing to each group. “That is unacceptable. Now mix it up!”
They did and it never happened again when I lived there. She didn’t muss and fuss. She didn’t make a racial tolerance magnet to stick on their lockers. She directly and clearly pointed out the problem to the offenders and told them it was unacceptable. Period.
When we moved to Eagle Mountain, my bubbly, outgoing nine-year-old was targeted by one particular girl in her class. It happened the first week we were here. There was no history.
We tried all the things I knew; all the things I had been told as a child. Ignore her and she’ll get tired and stop. Say something nice. Say something funny. Be self-deprecating. Reason with them. Use “I” language. Be friendly. Make other friends. Smile. Tell a leader. Steer clear. Nothing worked and she did not get bored.
Over the years the situation grew. Every event became more painful — and Bobette was recruiting all the new move-ins to join along. Everything was fair game. Her height, her weight, her intelligence, her talents.
I had mentioned it to a few leaders, but nothing changed. I did not approach her parents because I was afraid doing so would only make it worse, as often happens. Either the parents deny the situation and then friction comes between the families or the child is disciplined and then the punished child retaliates against the other child.
One day last year, after living here for four years, my then 13-year-old daughter left mutual an hour early in tears after a series of degrading pictures were drawn of her and rude comments made.
My poor bishop happened to call our home to speak to Sam after I’d spent about 30 minutes consoling my daughter. I happened to answer the phone. He got an earful. Mostly he heard that the ward was unsafe for my children. They had moved here as happy girls who loved to bear their testimonies. After the 50th rejection, after being openly mocked for their testimonies, and after being treated cruelly so often, they were different children. He had long known about the “issues” with the Young Women (as had the previous bishop). And I asked him why I was supposed to require my children to attend church meetings and functions when no one was requiring decent behavior.
When I finished blubbering I gave the phone to my husband. The bishop promised that action would be taken.
A couple of weeks later, the same daughter (by far my most sociable child) was home early again. Swearing never to return. “Bobette” had not only continued the usual round of nastiness, exclusion, and ganging up, but she had threatened to “beat the crap out of” my daughter, about three inches from her face, and about two yards from the chatting circle of Young Women leaders — who said nothing at all.
When she got home, we were beside ourselves. Sam called one of our daughter’s leaders who had been there and left an intense voice mail, asking why nothing was done.
This particular incident was so blatant that, unbeknownst to us, some of the usually silent bystanders actually complained about the situation to the leaders. (She had been mean to a number of other girls that night and they were indignant. My daughter’s situation made the best case against the bully.) The response was, “You mean she was serious?” They had been assuming all these years, that no child would really be that mean in front of the leaders. It must have been a joke.
DaNae, one of the leaders who had heard the whole incident (and brushed it off as a joke), drove immediately to our home. (She hadn’t even gotten our voice mail.) She asked about the incident. She asked about past incidents. She asked about the duration. She was stunned. She had no idea. She borrowed my copy of Odd Girl Out.
We talked until after 3:00 am. She wanted to take action I was worried about the outcome. She took full responsibility for both the past behavior and the resolution even though she had officially been released the week Sunday before. She would, she said, resolve it.
The next day she went met personally with the mother and father of the main bully and laid out the situation. She confirmed what had been happening and made it clear that the behavior would not be tolerated. Then I got a call from the mother. When I saw her name on caller ID, I was so scared to answer it. But I did, and she wanted a meeting. She didn’t sound happy. I wasn’t either.
A couple of days later, the girl, the mom, and the dad showed up for a dual-family meeting. The girl burst into tears and apologized. The parents said they would not allow it to continue. They were also enrolling her in anger management classes. They apologized themselves and told us that they had not known about it at all ?and that they wished I had contacted them sooner.
The real miracle part of the story, I cannot explain. Somehow these good parents not only accepted responsibility for their daughter’s behavior, but they taught her in a way that changed her heart. Immediately, her public and private behavior toward my daughter made a 180 degree turnaround. And church changed from a dreaded experience, to one that my daughter looks forward to with great anticipation. A year later the two could be considered, at least, distant friends.
Thanks to these parents and a Young Women leader who was willing to take direct action, my daughter’s life was completely reversed.
I commend those leaders who take bullying seriously and deal with it without equivocation.
{ 103 comments… read them below or add one }
I want to know what those parents said to change the mind of their daughter.
Oh Alison– things like this just break my heart and I’m so sorry that you and your daughter have such horrible memories from church-related experiences.
We had similar problems in our YW a few years back- the racial issues as well. The one girl who was actually slugging at and threatening people was already gone, but we still had issues. And as you’ve experienced yourself, we TRIED the lessons on kindness, the talks about accepting people with differences, etc.
I talked about it with my husband, who’s a police officer and has worked with kids from the inner city. He said, in so many words, “these are girls from families with alot of bad history, and from bad neighborhoods. They might have a sweet side to them, and good hearts buried deep in there. But that’s not what they show. They always have to act tough because that’s the environment they live in. They’re not going to respond to the “touchy feely” stuff. What they DO respond to is “other” toughness, to “command presence” — why? Because it’s what they deal with on a day to day basis– that’s the language they’ve learned to communicate in. To them, love and tenderness is weakness. You’re talking about kids who live in a neighborhood where toughness is what’s respected. Your “respected” if you’ve been to jail, have a scar from a bullet wound, or a tear-drop tatoo next to your eye. (they tatoo a tear for every person they’ve killed– no kidding) So then you go in there with “Jesus said we should be nice to each other” and they’re laughing behind your back. ”
So we gave it a try, and finally had a big pow-wow with them “tough style”, and basically said, in very firm terms “Look- this is the Church of Jesus Christ. This is the one place where everyone should feel welcomed and loved and safe. If girl’s can’t even come to God’s house, without being teased and picked on then where CAN they go to be accepted? There’s enough hate and jealousy and fighting and gossping and teasing out in the world, in your neighborhoods and at your schools. It WILL NOT happen here.”
We didn’t have a problem after that.
Oh– I want to add–
That “toughness” which really wasn’t “tough” at all, compared to what they see at school, opened a door. It’s sort of what broke through to them, and slowly but surely, they started softening up a little.
When I look back on it, it’s like we were trying to speak French to people who only understood Chinese. So once we spoke in their language, and showed that we weren’t “weak” just because we were women, or because we were “religious”, or because we were usually tender and lovey-dovey- but that we could be tough AND loving, firm AND tender, then they started opening up a little to OUR language.
Does that make sense?
Alison, I really need to know what those people said to their daughter.
We have been dealing with a bullying family for years. 3 girls who can be so mean – to each other and to everyone else. We’ve had lesson after lesson. The parents act supportive, but there is no change. It’s more of a “this is how girls act” attitude. The girls aren’t blatently mean in front of everyone, but they are sly and extremely gossipy, and that’s how they take people down.
I loved your article, but my heart hurts for you and your daughter.
i have to say that this post dragged up A LOT of emotions and feelings in me. I might get rant-y in a bit!
Growing up in the super-rich neighborhood and being just from a “regular” family was the issue for me. I always was made to feel less than important by the kids in my class and by the leaders to an extent because i was from a normal family. My mom didn’t get her hair and nails done every week and we had to clean our own house, I also had to share a room with my sister and did not have my own car to drive–oh the humanity!! When I made to Laurels one of the leaders kind of had a ‘cult of personality’ going on and I refused to be part of it. I did my own thing and completed my own value projects and whatnot on my own, which really bugged her. I was also very much into the music and drama scene at school, and many of my friends were not LDS. In fact, I had the audacity to go to prom with a Catholic boy. This didn’t sit well with this advisor and she was very mean, rude, scarcastic to me about my interests, friends and how I spent my time. She even went so far as to call people in the ward and tell/threaten them to not come to my mother’s ward choir. I would often complain to my parents about it, but they were so scared of retaliation that they felt they couldn’t do much of anything.
Fast forward about 10 years, I’m home from my mission, BYU and am living at home going to Grad School. Her husband is one of the counselors in the singles ward. She comes up to me and started to give me a hard time etc. I had finally had enough. I told her how her verbal jabs made me feel and that I was an adult now so she could just back off. I never went back to that ward again. She is still a nasty mean woman and whenever I see her at home I walk the other way.
My younger brothers also got physically harrased in this ward too. In fact, one boy tried to drown my brother at a scout activity, so he obliged the kid and “drowned”. About 4 mins later, after this kid was signifigantly scared my brother came up from the bottom of the pool and left scouts for good. The attitude of the leaders and the bishop was that “boys will be boys”. To which I say, boys will be boys if we let them just be boys and don’t train them to be young men! If the church insists on using the scout program for the young men, then lets live the principles taught by the scout organization–and when I say live, I mean do it every single day, no exceptions.
I applaued the sister who was blunt with the girls in your laurel class. I have always thought this was the best way to deal with any issue–directly. Save the sweet lessons and the glass grapes for someone else. Kids are not stupid, and actually appreciate a direct approach. As a school teacher I’ve also found that a ‘zero-tolerance’ policy works well for any behavior problem.
I think many people get to church and they–along with their children–think that regular rules of behavior don’t apply. When I taught primary a few years ago, there were kids doing things that I know would not have been acceptable in their classes at school. Why do we not require a higher standard of behavior at church? I tell you why, many parents see church/primary/YW-YM as a dumping ground and free babysitting for their kids while they go chat in the foyer during Sunday School. And many teachers don’t think it’s their place to say anything. Well it is, and we should and take the consequences–whatever it is.
Thankfully, for me the other advior in my laurel class was a saint and protected me and encouraged me as much as she could. Last year when I was home I finally told her how she basically saved me from quitting church. She had no idea how I felt during that time. She is one of my heros.
Rant over.
Thank you for posting this. I am a teachers Quorum advisor and we have a diverse group of boys. I hope that I can be as brave if things get this bad in the future.
Thanks again.
Silver, Randi, I do, too. But I don’t think I’ll ask them.
Tracy, I agree with what you wrote. In my case as a child and my daughter’s here, however, this wasn’t the case at all. The worst offenders had generally stable families, good home lives, at least upper-middle class, etc. All life-long church members. It’s easier to see the “whys” among some of the groups you dealt with. I commend you for doing so.
eden, so many great points.
I have some strong feelings about this, but I’m not sure how to share them in a way that won’t come out wrong. Forgive me if I fail miserably.
When we moved to Utah, we knew we wanted to have a little piece of land and build a great big house. But we didn’t want to live in a neighborhood of great, big, snooty houses. It’s kind of hard to delicately inquire about the snottiness rating of a neighborhood you’re considering.
“Hi, we like this neighborhood, but want to know if the people are obsessed with money, believe there is a direct relationship between the size of your home and your righteousness, and/or where the members value clothes/cars and other status symbols an inordinate amount?”
So, we hunted about whilst tiptoeing around the issue, asking what we thought we could. When we found our five acres here, I had made a contact that, finally, I just asked point blank. She is quite wealthy, but noted that the large lots hosted a mix of people from “mansionettes” to farmer homesteads and that ward members didn’t much care about it.
It turned out that she was spot on about that and money and status symbols or lack of them have never had much influence here. (In hindsight, maybe if I had NOT looked for that quality my kids would have been given respect for the size of our house! You can’t win! ;:wink: )
Though I sometimes think it’s abusive, we clean our own house here, too. And they mow the half acre of just grass with a PUSH mower! (I haven’t been able to find anyone else in the ward who doesn’t ride ?) Does anyone consider that teaching our children to work rather than coddling them is a GOOD thing? Frankly, I’d love to get my nails done every week, but I just can’t keep those things intact ?and it’s hard to type and play any instrument with them.
And there’s the interesting thing about bullies. MOST people are NOT bullies. But, even as adults, so many of us are absolute cowards. We site back and allow the bullying. And that gives the bullies power. Kudos on calling this woman on her behavior. How I wish more Mormons would see that standing up to evil IS doing good.
Amen. Does that mean they have to stop “peeing out” the fires? :shocked:
:clap:
Eric, welcome and thank you. The bravery you speak of is so crucial in our leaders. I hope I can be that brave as well.
I never really had to deal with bullies, though I know a few of my siblings did, but they learned right quick that it was something they didn’t want to do. My mom was half mexican, and so when she talked it could get loud let alone if you pissed her off. Lucky for my kids, I am a lot my mothers daughter, I don’t really talk like my mom, but she taught how not to take crap from anyone, so I hope my kids get that from me, because I learned that lesson well
Whatever happened to “Bob”?
My husband was bullied…by a girl! She was older than him and relentless. Finally, his father told him to hide behind a bush and when she comes riding by on her bike, run and push her over as hard as he could. He did. And she never bothered him again.
And that reminds me of when I was bullied once by this tall and obnoxious girl in high school. She was sitting in the seat behind me on a bus making fun of me. The more she did it, the madder I got. I told her to knock it off or I would hit her. Of course she didn’t believe me as I was almost the smallest in my class, kind, and quiet. She kept at it and, without thinking, I turned around and slapped her in the face. Now she was the quiet one and never bothered me after that.
I could tell you another story of when I was in college, but you might get the wrong idea about me. :bigsmile:
Kathy, welcome.
Bob is still around. I only see him at the class reunions. I don’t want to give any details because I’m not trying to out him. Those who were around already know who he is. The others don’t need to.
I did have one funny incident a couple of years ago. When I was preparing to run the marathon with my old high school friend, she suggested that the night before the marathon we drive up early and stay over night with her good friend “Sue.” Sue is married to Bob. I nearly choked on my salmon and tried declined. She had no idea about any of the history.
Lewis and Kathy, I appreciate your stories. I really struggle with knowing what to teach my kids. Teaching “Jesus said love everyone, treat them kindly, too.” leaves out how to teach them to protect themselves. I don’t think being Christlike requires one to be a doormat or a target. But I don’t know how far is appropriate. These days using physical force to combat emotional abuse will get you suspended and maybe even arrested. Emotional abuse isn’t really recognized among kids as being legitimate abuse. When the rock throwing stopped, I used to dream that Bob would punch me in the face so that (a) teachers would address it and (b) I could pummel him. He would have creamed me, but it would have felt good and, as you said, he might have decided it wasn’t worth the trouble.
It’s interesting you mentioned that many people equate size of house with righteousness etc Alison. I don’t know if that is how people really feel in some places, but the last time we went to the Wasatch Front (and I’m not bagging on Utah here–there are many good people there) we went to dinner with some friends, and I felt that they thought this way, and that they felt sorry for us becuase we live in a small town, in a very small house and very old house with lots of quirks and not many perks (like a/c), but they really felt sorry for us because we were OK with it all. The situation really bothered me and then I was bothered that I was feeling guily for not wanting to ‘keep up appearances’ so to speak. This is totally off topic, so I hope that I’m not thread-jacking here.
Back on topic–how do we teach our kids to effectively stand up to evil? Unfortunately meekness is equated with weakness. More importantly, how do we teach them to not be the bully? How do we in leadership positions effectively stamp out bullying? I know we can’t cry wolf, but how do we learn to dissern when a situation is serious. Perhaps if those being bullied felt they would be taken seriously they would seek help.
As for pee-ing out the fires…disgusting, totally not in the scout handbook.
I have something to say here about how you tend to be treated according to your economic status. I too have been targeted. However, I am in the opposite position. I came from a large town to a small town and built a “modest” home. I won’t say how big it is but people watching it being built in this area called it the “new stake house”. Now mind you, it is no bigger than the homes being built on the wasatch front. But even my husband was afraid it had some “snobby potential”. I was terrified to move in once it was built because we were hearing rumors that we were “just another group of Utahn’s coming to change this town with our money.” My husband was welcomed with open arms because he was from here. But I on the other hand was treated soooooo different because I’m from Utah. When we moved in, I never got a “hello”, no one would come through my front door, ( a few brought cookies) but at church I got really sad reactions. I kid you not when I say I REALLY REALLY REALLY had to work hard to gain some respect and acceptance. But after the hard work, and mostly trying to focus on my callings and trying to “Love” the people to death, I am finally accepted and I can say I now Love my ward. I have made every effort possible to make this change for every new “Utahn” or other that has moved into this ward to feel welcome a hundred fold.
All I hear now is how this town is changing and their mad because all these Utahns want to come and change the town. I want to say “Hello! I’m a Utahn and we’re not so bad!!!! Infact, we could bring some good to this town too!!!” (They don’t see me as an outsider anymore but still have this opinion about utahns.) I guess my example hasn’t made any change. I also found it funny how when I went through many deadly, and tragic moments in my life that is when they accepted me more too. It was almost like a frat house accepting their trialed guinea pig”. I know that’s negative but I am learning alot about how people can be judjmental according to how you look and live. I hope I can teach my kids valuable lessons about all this. I know I learned a lot from the stories in this blog!!
It’s not a Utah thing, but it’s exacerbated in areas where Mormons are concentrated. There are areas in Utah I would never live. (And California and Idaho. I saw the same things in less LDS areas.) I already knew some of them because I grew up here, but after being in Florida for ten years, dynamics change and new areas pop up. Some of the areas that used to be exclusive 20 years ago, are just run-of-the-mill today. Now there are new “cool” neighborhoods. Some of them have attitudes that I do not want my kids to grow up in.
Last year, when we decided to move away from Eagle Mountain (the bullying was a big factor (as it had not been resolved), but not the only one, by any means), we began looking for a lot to buy. Again we asked around and looked around. We wanted a half acre so we only looked at lots close to that size. Some of the neighborhoods were gorgeous and very exclusive. But most of them made me uncomfortable. All the “statement cars” and stuff. I don’t know, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but it wasn’t the kind of surrounding I really wanted.
When we narrowed our list down to two lots in Lindon, we attended both wards. I’d never done that before, but NOW I realized how great that impact could be. We went fasting and praying as a family. One ward seemed a great fit. The neighborhood, also, was just what we wanted. Half acre lots. Nice, clean homes and well-kept yards, but not an elaborate, showy places. Nice, decent, educated people.
Well, TODAY I’m feeling sorry for you with no a/c! We’re spending over $800 per month on electricity and I’m STILL uncomfortable!
I realize now that since I was bullied and never did learn to resolve it, I simply don’t understand how one grows up without making oneself a target. I’m so far from being shy or reserved or a doormat now, as an adult, that it didn’t occur to me that some of my kids would inherit that tendency. Teaching my kids not to bully was probably one of the primary things I focused on when I began having kids. It totally backfired BECAUSE, I assume, I was unable to balance that with whatever kids need to do to be protected.
So, now, I’m at a loss. I teach my kids and if they misbehave there is a consequence, but I refuse to make them pansies who have no defenses. Sometimes I’m not sure that I wouldn’t rather have my kids BE bullies than BE victims. As horrible as that sounds, some days I feel that way. Why? Well, look at me and look at Bob. What was the impact on his being a bully as opposed to the impact of my being bullied?
I spent years trying to overcome the insecurities and fear. I did all sorts of stupid things that created all sorts of long-term problems trying to prove that he was wrong, that I was acceptable and had a right to be here. I’m 43 and it still lingers about a bit in the corners. Sheesh.
He went up the ranks in the priesthood. Went to college and on a mission and married in the temple. He has a bunch of kids and makes a living doing what he loves. I don’t know if he ever even felt bad about it. If he did, he sure didn’t ever say anything to me about it. He knows how to find me if he wanted to. Yes, I do believe their is some impact on him, but I can’t see the manifestation anywhere. Maybe one day he thought, “Gosh, I shouldn’t have been so mean.” And then he moved on.
I think that is a big thing. Especially when the bullying and aggression is non-physical. I sincerely request that anyone working with youth read the book I linked in the article, Odd Girl Out. When DeNae, who had never really experience bullying, read it, the proverbial light bulb went on at 1,000 watts.
ROFL They called us “the overflow stake center.” (The back of our lot backs onto the stake center’s baseball park.) I thought I would die.
Once in Sunday School the teacher made some reference to the the Pharisees and phylacteries. He said they thought the bigger the phylacteries the more righteous they were, “Kind of like Smiths house.” I couldn’t leave the room without making a scene, so I just sat there with my head down and my hair covering my face for the rest of class, tears streaming down my face. I know he was just trying to be funny and I felt so stupid for crying, but I also felt just horrible. I wanted to explain to everyone that we didn’t mean for the house to be so big (we just didn’t pay attention), that we didn’t think we were better than them, we didn’t think we were more blessed materially because we were more righteous. I wanted to point out that almost 2,000 square feet was for our company, that we homeschooled so the kids were there all day, that we actually had less square footage per person than lots of other people in the ward because of our family size, that we didn’t have horses and barns that lots of others did, that also cost a lot. I wanted to note that we buy lots of our clothes from Wal-Mart! I just felt awful.
The poor teacher, who is a great guy, hunted me down to apologize–which I dreaded. He was just joking around and I knew it, he just hit this very tender spot. We had moved there to a great extent because we wanted to have a larger house to accommodate our lives, but we didn’t want it to MEAN anything. And when it seemed to mean something, it made me feel awful.
And then there’s the side of me that has lived with four kids in a 1,500 square foot home with two businesses who wants to smack me for being so sensitive. Wah, wah, poor baby.
When we built this house, I told the builder I did not want to know how big it was. We put in what we needed, period. I wanted to be able to honestly tell people I didn’t know how big it was. I didn’t want to appear to be bragging. I didn’t want God to think that I was proud about it. And when people asked, which happened ALL the time, I just shrugged. When we put it on the market, they calculated the square footage and plastered it all over the internet. We were the cover home on one of those grocery store real estate magazines. Suddenly my big secret was out. And you know what? It was just a stupid number. It didn’t make any difference at all. Except that it’s really hard to keep clean.
Heather, I appreciate your insights.
Just a side note~ we never had to use physical force in any of our issues, it was all words and bringing in the right people.
Don’t feel sorry for us and the no a/c thing. I live in N-NM at 8000 feet elevation and there are about only 3 weeks, and it’s not even days in a row, where it’s uncomfortable. I also grew up in Phoenix, which as you may or may not know is the belly of hell–so heat, bring it on. When I’m hot and feel like complaining I often tell myself that most people in the world don’t have a/c so quitcherwhinein’. Of course tomorrow we are leaving our mountain chalet to go home and see the family. The only reason we would go to Phx at this time of year is that my long-lost sister and her band of wee ones have returned from an eastern state for a quick vay-cay. I”m planning that we will melt in about 3.4 seconds after getting off the plane, so I’ve planned our funeral already–it’s being held in a dixie cup, our melted remains are to be frozen and saved for posterity and ice sculpted into Greecean Urns later. We also get our pay back in the winter when we have to pay obscenely high heating bills…old + drafty = $$
As for the size of our houses, that is very unfortunate that you were picked on in SS. I would have walked out, out, out. But I get it about the toxic areas in any place you live. There are those same areas in my very small town too. There are certian neighborhoods that have a reputaion (good, bad, weathly, ghetto and so on). It’s too bad that we just can’t see past it and just all get along.
In my stake growing up the rift between the apparent haves and the apparent have nots was so wide, they totally gerrymandered the ward boundaries to break up one neighborhood in particular. My parents lived on the edge of that neighborhood and were cut out and put into a different ward. Mom says it’s been a wonderful change and she would never go back to the way it was. And as an added benefit, that’s how I met my husband. My BIL was in the new ward and he introduced me to my husband.
HA! Mr. Keats would be proud.
Reading this has brought up so many memories. My ONLY bullying experience was at church, and it’s still painful to this day. I don’t know if it can really be called bullying since there were no threats or physical action, but it was a lot of gossip and exclusion that was really hurtful. At fourteen, we moved to a new town (horrible time to move!). We were living in an apartment while we found permanent housing. It was quite a wealthy ward but these apartments were kind of considered the “scum” of the ward.
The first several weeks there, the girls all literally sat across the room from me (and moved if I sat next to them) and whispered at each other while looking at me. I’m sure the leaders knew it was going on but no one did anything about it. Finally, my mom just told me to come to RS with her instead of going to YW, since it wasn’t our permanent ward. I think we lived there for about 3 months. Going to RS probably just made it worse because then people knew there WAS a problem and still didn’t want to do anything about it. I could not wait to get out of that ward! And we actually moved into a ward that neighbored this one and was very nice. I made some great friends in that new ward. But the experience did help me to see how hurtful this behavior is to people. Today, I remember the names of every single one of those “mean girls” and they would probably have no idea who I am – or if they did remember me they would probably be appalled at their behavior as adults. But at the time, it was just the thing to do to people who lived in apartments, I guess.
I’m glad I’ve seen it from that side in some ways, but still wish that no one would have to go through that kind of experience. It’s really hard on a kid, and I can see that it did damage my confidence (I didn’t super-achieve like you did, Alison. In fact, I think I was kind of on the super-achieve track and it sort of knocked me off my confidence level.)
I think kids just have no clue how much this can affect others unless they are bluntly told that what they are doing is harmful. They think it’s a joke. I’m sure Bob probably thought he was the funniest guy around, and he probably got a lot of positive-reinforcement for what he was doing, unfortunately.
The dixie cup analogy was just too poetic for words.
agardner, thanks for relating your story. You’re destined to be called into YW some day to save some poor girl!
So is it the pageants that mean I’m a “super-achiever”???
The Greecean Urns is more of a tribute to Mayor Shin’s Wife in the Music Man….classic. Everytime we had a family talent show my sister and a few of the cousins and I would re-create that scene word for word….it put the whole family into stitches everytime.
This is still bullying. It does not have to be a physical act. We just as there is emotional and psycological (sp??) abuse so there can be the same with bullying. The result was the same, perhaps even more devestating though. You still remember it and are be affected by it.
But Nephi said it best, “there must be opposition in all things” If we don’t have these growing experiences we will never change and become the people our Father in Heaven needs us to become. I know from my experiences I never wanted anyone to feel left out because of what patch was on the back pocket of their jeans, consequently my sister and I had a very motley group of friends (not be be called a Motely Crew, because that would have been a ‘heavy metal band’ and that would have made our brains melt–at least according to Mom). I never wanted anyone to feel left out–so my sister and I included them, consequently we went of lots of charity dates and had interesting experiences, but these too made us better people.
Charity dates?? Your verbiage is crystal clear and funny!
Well, the pageants and just that it seems you have done a lot with your life in many ways. It’s dumb, but I still feel effects of that experience in my confidence in approaching new people and such.
That’s nice. Thanks. It’s not dumb, agardner. FWIW, one of my other daughters (older than the one in the story) went to RS with me for a few months when she couldn’t face the girls in church, too. Fortunately, there have always been a couple of nice girls in her group, but even our BISHOP tells her that she’s better off not being friends with most of them, since they simply aren’t nice kids.
I also experienced bullying when I was young. When I was 10 my dad got a new job and we moved to a new town. There was another family that moved into our new ward a month or so after us who had a daughter my same age. I was delighted and hoped we would be friends. She even went to my school!
The other girl – call her S. – turned out to be quite a leader, the kind of girl you just naturally went along with. Unfortunately, she wasn’t a very nice person. (Looking back, I can’t help thinking she must have been unhappy herself to have been so mean to others.) I unthinkingly went along with her actions until the day that we made fun of another girl at primary, who was excited about her new shoes. They were a poor family, so that was a big deal to her. S. mocked her for being excited about something like new shoes and I and the other girl in our class made fun of her, too. She went home crying, and her mother called my mother.
Oh. Wow. Was my mother ever angry.
It was a half hour drive out to their house, and I think my mother lectured me the whole time. We got there, I was told where she was, I went out there, and I apologized – profusely and sincerely. I honestly hadn’t thought about her feelings during all this, just my own desire to be accepted. I felt terrible and very ashamed when my mother pointed out how much I’d hurt her. We went back home as soon as I had done that and I never knowingly did anything like that again. (OTOH, I am very good at putting my foot in my mouth and saying stupid things, which gives me many opportunities to practice apologizing!)
That’s not the end of the story, though. Now that I had repented I wouldn’t / couldn’t participate in S’s little games anymore. So, she turned on me. And, because we were in school together as well, it escalated into a nightmare. She managed to make sure that I had no friends at school or at church. I was mocked everywhere I went. I had things thrown at me. If I sat down next to someone at church she would get up and move away from me. New girls moving in were warned to stay away from me – kindness to me would be punished with a similar ostracism. And it wasn’t just my age group – she managed to turn the entire Mutual against me. Two incidents in particular stand out in my memory. One fast Sunday, the boy I had a crush on stood up and bore his testimony about how united and wonderful the Mutual was – except for some people, who were … well, I forget exactly how he phrased it, but it was clear to me, and everyone else, that he was talking about me, as the snake in the Eden of Mutual.
The low point, however, was when we were coming home from my first temple trip. The bus we were on broke down, and we were all at a diner, while the bishop and the other brethren tried to fix it. It was after midnight when I turned a corner and found that, all of a sudden, all the teenagers wandering aimlessly around the parking lot had coelesced into a spearhead, pointed at me. The leader, and point of the spear, was S. Before I had a chance to react she verbally attacked me, telling me that everyone was sick of what a horrible person I was, and that I had better shape up and act more like the way they wanted me to.
I looked at her, and at the triangle of youth formed up behind her, nodding their agreement, hate for me clear in their expressions. I was dumbfounded that she, a 12 year old girl, had managed to get the entire Mutual combined against me, to get even the Laurels and Priests following her lead. I looked back at S., leaning forward a little, hands on her hips, the fluorescent light streaking across her face in bands of light and shadow, her face smugly self-righteous. The bully, safely backed by her gang.
I slapped her.
And then, I ran off before anyone could retaliate, to sit alone in the bus, crying and heartbroken. One leader came up and asked why I was crying and I poured out my woes on her shoulder. She sympathized and tried to comfort me, but also shushed me, because S’s mother was nearby and might hear me. I felt guilty then for saying what I had and worried that I’d get S’s mother mad at me.
When I got home I got in trouble with my parents for slapping S.
In a book, that would have made everything better. But, this was real life, and instead my life just continued on in ostracism and misery, at church and at school. Fortunately, we moved a couple of years later, which I attribute to the Lord taking a hand in things. The ward we moved into was wonderful and I soon had plenty of friends – at church and at school. But the scars lingered and I was always afraid. When I graduated from high school, I went to Rick’s, where I ran into a girl from that ward. It occurred to me that S. might be there too. I looked her up, and sure enough, there she was, in the phone book. I called, she answered, and I hung up, too frightened of her to confront her as I had half-planned to do. I didn’t repeat the experiment, just fervently hoped I wouldn’t wind up in a class with her. My last semester I saw her, briefly. I was on my way to listen to a tape for a language class and I passed her coming out of that area. My heart stopped and my stomach felt like it had been turned to ice. I held my breath and walked stiffly past her, trying to look casual, hoping she wouldn’t recognize or notice me. She didn’t stop, or seem to notice me at all. It was quite awhile before my breathing slowed to normal levels, though.
The bullying haunted me for several years after that, until I had some spiritual experiences that allowed me to forgive her. I don’t really think about her now, or about that experience, except as a learning experience. I want to teach my children not to be bullies, and I want to teach them the social skills they need to keep from getting bullied. I tend to try to protect the underdog. I recognize when someone I work or socialize with is getting stuck with a hateful label and work to break up perceptions like that.
Sometimes I do think about her, and what I’d do if I ran into her now. I think I would probably confront her – not angrily, but quietly. I would remind her of who I was and tell her just how much she’d hurt me all those years ago. And then I would wait to see how she reacted. I would hope she’d apologize. Whatever she did, though, I would leave it behind at that and try to fellowship her as a sister in the gospel.
At least, I think that’s how I hope I’d react.
Oh momof2, my heart is broken. I have nothing to say except that such behavior is evil. It’s not “boys will be boys” or “girls will be girls” and it’s time that those who lead the youth stand up and stop being cowards. They have a duty to protect the children in their charge and that duty FAR outweighs to duty to make sure everyone attends.
I saw all of that go on in my ward, too, as a young girl. Most of it was in the boy’s circle though…the leaders response? Either ignoring it altogether (“boys will be boys!”) or joining in the “fun” with their own comments :/I felt so bad for the pudgy boy….the poor boy…the dorky boy, etc. And for some reason, no one seemed to understand that THESE BOYS need the most support and praise! NOT “teasing” that to them was obviously spirit-breaking and humiliating. I saw it happen with the boys my age, and then a few years later with my younger brother. I put a portion of the blame onto those horrid boys and ignorant leaders for the way my brother’s life has turned out. Church should be the one sanctuary left when all else in life has failed us. Leaders should be actively looking for the odd-man-out and doing all he can to lift them up and include them. And all too often leaders just look the other way for fear of offending the offendee or thinking “oh its just something kids do”.
I’m so glad it was finally taken seriously in your ward. I only wish someone had been there for my brother, too.
I learned that at a young age, that words are quite powerful and can be more damaging than smacking someone. I use to say that sticks and stone may break your bones but words can hurt your soul. It’s sad that kids who have figured that out use it in such an un-Christlike way. Seriosuly, and if you can’t even go to church to be safe, wher can you go?
agardner,
Add another thing we have in common…age 13-14 was a nightmare for me. The girls in my ward decided that they didn’t want to be my friends anymore, and told me so. They told me they didn’t want to sit with me at lunch anymore. Add that to the open teasing and mocking in the halls by other students, having things written on the bathroom about me…it was awful.
This also happened to me when I was an adult. Gossiping, etc. — made all the worse because I was working with the youth and the adults pulled the youth into their charades. Hard stuff. One of the few times I understood how hard it can be to go to church when you feel like an outcast. (I’m glad I still did because these things do pass, and things did get better to some degree.)
Seriously, where did you guys grow up? I must have been so ingrossed in school that I never noticed that bad of things going on or something. For real, throwing things at you? Glory.
Betsey, now that I’m an old lady, I don’t think anything makes me madder than unfairness. The leaders you spoke of make me sick.
Yea, Lewis, I got rocks thrown at my head. That was the only time I went home from the bus stop crying. Every other time I walked really slowly, trying to time my arrival with that of the bus. If I got there early, it was horrible. I remember standing like a soldier, staring straight at the house across the street, pretending not to hear or see what they were doing.
I had one friend named Lanae who probably had it just as bad. She still sucked her thumb in kindergarten. Haven’t thought about that in a long time. She probably deserves a blog of her own.
Oh, I grew up in Orem, Utah. Every kid at my bus stop was in my ward.
Speaking of throwing things – I once had a boy who teased me all the time. I couldn’t stand him. Really, I thought he was quite mean. One day (I think this was 6th-7th grade he spit in my hair! That was all I could take and I went home crying and told my mom she had to do something. She was friends with his mom and gave her a call, and soon he was at my doorstep apologizing and admitting that he was only doing it because he had a crush on me and didn’t know how to get my attention. If only all bullying were about that! I think with most bullies, it’s their own insecurity that spawns it.
Mlinford, we do seem to have a lot in common, don’t we?! I can’t imagine feeling ostracized like that as an adult, I guess I just assume all adults are “grown-up”, although I have heard of things like what you mentioned so I know they do happen.
I got picked on a lot because I am a small person in the first place, but also because I not only skipped 1st grade, but my birthday was at the end of the school year. So I was extra small and of course labeled as the brain. In 2nd grade (remember, I was only 6!), I remember very clearly a teacher’s 5th grade son was bugging me, so I took him down. I remember him lying on the ground wit me sitting on him and punching him! (It was probably ME that was the bully, lol!) Yeah, he never bugged me again.
Anyway, I had people bugging me all the time. In 4th grade, the (completely insensitive) teacher would often make us line up by height, which of course always mortified the really tall girl at one end, and me at the other end. Except of course the one time I passed up Mike, and he was the shortest (and thus mortified that *I* was taller than he was.) What is the point of that?
So now for my story that is similar yet with a different outcome than the one agardner told. When I was in 7th or 8th grade, the kid behind me kept bugging bugging bugging me (poking, swatting, etc), so one day, I got up, sharpened my pencil, sat down at my desk and promptly stabbed him in the back. Looking back now, I cannot believe I did that! He actually went and told on me. The school counselor brought us in to his office, and proceeded to give both us a lecture about how when two people like each other they sometimes bug each other but we should do it more nicely. Perhaps the boy liked me, but I was just extremely annoyed by him, and that lecture just made me even more angry! The boy did stop bugging me, though. I doubt he liked me after that, lol!
In high school, I still got picked on a lot, but ignoring mostly worked too. My group of friends was really into “slamming” and we all actually got really good at it. (As a sidenote, this slamming “talent” horrified my dh when I first met him! I didn’t realize I was so bad that way until I met him. I was scared to even open my mouth in front of his family for the first few years of marriage! I’ve had to work extra hard to get over that. I still do it sometimes, but it’s not the habit it used to be.) Anyway, I never really fit in at school. I had my school friends who would constantly plan activities and never invite me. I had my church friends I did stuff with, but I was ahead of them in school, so never saw them there. Interestingly, I was almost always the “go between girl”, who was always friends with both groups of girls in YW. The very volatile daughter of the bishop always liked me even though she changed friends more often than socks. She always had to hate someone, it seemed. Somehow I made it through to my senior year, at the end of which one of my “school friends” wrote in my yearbook that she always thought I was a brat, but this last year I was much better. Boy that sure made me feel great–not!
I never told my mother about any of this, btw. My mom had no idea what was going on at school. I just got back or avoided most of the time. So I post this for two reasons. I sometimes wonder if I would’ve been considered a bully at times (even though my memory says I was just sticking up for myself.) And I also wonder how we teach our children to deal with bullies. Yes, they should stand up to them, but no, they should really not resort to physical violence (even though it seems that’s what it takes) or verbal abuse. Our next door neighbors are terrible bullies. When we first moved in, my kids tried to play nicely with them, but they are loudmouthed, foulmouthed, rude, physical and downright mean. One kid would punch my oldest son, and then when he would cry, taunt him and call him a crybaby (even though we’d hear this boy crying all the time in the backyard when fighting with his brother just to get his mom to sympathize). When they tried to do night games in the culdesac, the neighbor boys would argue and fight and put down the others that no one would ever have any fun. I didn’t really feel comfortable talking to the mom, but I did bring up my concerns a few times. their mom just said they were hard kids. My son just completely avoids the boys. When he does run across them, he just treats them nicely until they aren’t, and then he leaves. Now those boys are starting to bug my 6 year old. When my 6 yo ds walks to his friend’s house, he has to go past the next door neighbors house. They will often taunt him, and call to him and try to make him do stupid stuff. All I know what to do is tell him to ignore them! So I still wonder how to deal with that.
Which brings up a good point. Yeah, I was bullied – but have I learned from that experience how to handle bullies? No. I don’t know how to teach my children how to be assertive without becoming bullies themselves. And how do I teach them to be kind and loving and thoughtful – and not be victims?
Right now we are dealing with a little girl across the street whose parents just got divorced. She’s really acting out, and being pretty horrible, especially to my youngest. My two girls want to play with her, and sometimes I can look out and see them having lots of fun together, but there are many times my youngest will come home crying and I have to explain once again to the girls that ostracizing somebody is going to mean I won’t let them play together anymore. And then things get better, for a while. We’ve advised my oldest that she needs to stand up for her sister and not let the neighbor girl be mean to her. And my oldest is doing very well at that, and she’s learning that the neighbor girl wants to play with them enough to change her behavior when she realizes she won’t play with anyone if she doesn’t play with both of them. But, I see more and more problems like this ahead of us and I’m wondering – what do I need to teach my children so that they will be strong enough to handle the inevitable bullying attempts they are going to encounter? How can I “bully-proof” my child? Is it even possible?
I started typing my feelings about this, different ways to stem off bullying, then remembered as I was typing out a few experiences, that we actually discussed this topic 3 or 4 years ago on the old site. So rather than typing a whole new response, I went to the old site to see if I could find it, and I did.
So the rest of this, is my response to the earlier article.
My father was in the army, so we moved every three years. Every three years I was in a new neighborhood and a new school. One of my father’s stations was for a measly 9 months! But, I happened to have had a wonderful experience. Though, like every child, I was poked fun at every now and then, I was never the victim of other children’s continual taunting and teasing, and neither were any of my three brothers. But I did often witness it and noticed that one of three things happened when a “new kid” joined the class. He/she either became a target for bullying, the most popular kid in the class, or just blended in. It seemed to me that almost invariably, it was up to the kid. I’m sure that for the most part, it was a completely subconscious thing, influenced mostly by the child’s personality how extroverted or introverted they were, how they first responded to the other children, etc. I saw some children come into class for the first time, obviously feeling overwhelmed and nervous, head and shoulders slumped. But then there were the kids who came in full of energy and smiling. I remember distinctly, in Mrs. Yoh’s fifth grade class, when a kid named Joey came in, halfway through the year. Mrs. Yoh introduced him, he gave a large wave over head, smiled and said “Hey ya’ll !” and headed toward a seat Mrs. Yoh had pointed out to him. A boy in the class said something about Joey’s accent and kind of sneered when referring to him as the “new kid.” Joey just smiled and said, “Hey, I’m new, I’m improved, and I’m on sale, three for a dollar!” What in the world that meant, I had no idea, but I laughed and so did everyone else. And Joey was popular from that moment on.
Jennifer, a friend from high school was also an “army brat” who moved every three years, was covered in freckles and had frizzy red hair that was more orange than red. Unfortunately, that made her a natural target. But she told me that every time she was introduced into a new class, she immediately commented on her physical appearance herself, before any of the other kids did. She’d stand up, introduce herself and say, “I’m sure you’re all insanely jealous of my orange hair and freckles.” Then she’d start pulling her hair, and picking at her face and say “I’ve never been fond of them myself, but they’re stuck, and there’s nothing I can do about it.” She was well-liked too.
I did have the one experience where a boy threatened to beat me up after class. This was in the fourth grade. Francisco, a very large, very overweight boy in the class, who was a “blender” like me, overheard the boy threaten me and said, “Don’t worry, if he tries anything I’ll sit on him.” I imagine that he probably poked fun at himself like that often, and that’s likely what helped him to be liked and accepted, rather than make him the target of teasing and bullying that children who are overweight often become. I’m sure he really was self-conscious about his weight, and poking fun at himself was just a way for him to cope in social arenas. I’m not a psychologist, and I don’t know if a psychologist would say that they way Jennifer or Francisco poked fun at themselves was “healthy” or not. But it sure did seem to protect them from what would likely have been a lifetime of teasing and bullying with certain kids.
Every now and then I’d hear a comment about the rather large gap between my two front teeth. (Military dentists don’t give you braces for cosmetic reasons.) Strangely enough, I didn’t hear those kind of comments until high school. But I’d learned from other kids’ examples, how to handle it. So I’d say, “Yeah, this gap between my teeth is actually a musical instrument. If I stick out my teeth and hold them up to the wind at just the right angle, you can hear a lovely whistling noise similar to that of the panflute.” I’d actually heard that somewhere, but I can’t remember where. I think it may have been a comedian on TV.
I guess the key is, if our children aren’t naturally inclined to respond in the manner that Joey or Jennifer did, to find a way to teach our children to respond to bullying and teasing, in such a way that it squelches the teasing. I would assume that Jennifer did get teased about her hair and freckles at some point, and that the teasing was probably the catalyst that influenced her to start introducing herself the way she did. But it worked. It seems that the biggest indicator of how likely a child is to be a perpetual target, isn’t necessarily if they are new, if they have freckles, red hair, wear glasses, are overweight, have an accent or any other silly thing that kids decide is worthy of teasing but how the child responds to the comments.
I think the kids who tease and bully do it for power. They get off on seeing how they can control someone else. They can make them cry. They can make them afraid. They relish in the dominance. And when they see that a tease or a poke makes a child cower, they continue to tease and poke, and virtually feed on that child’s fear and pain. It’s really very sick and twisted if you think about it.
But if a child is able to demonstrate from the beginning that they aren’t threatened, that a negative comment will only bring back a joke and a smile, then the bully has lost his power, and sees that he can’t get the dominion he’s seeking for with that child. In Jennifer’s case, she essentially made a preemptive strike, by being the first to make a comment about her hair and freckles, which said, in a humorous way, “I recognize that I’m a likely target. But, I won’t be teased. You won’t make a victim out of me.”
I’m sitting here imagining comebacks to negative comments:
A large nose: “Yeah it’s big, so be careful around me. I can smell B.O. from a mile away.”
Short stature: “Yes, I’m short. But imagine the hundreds of dollars in loose change I’ve found under everyone else’s’ sofas.”
I haven’t had to deal with my children being bullied or teased yet. My husband and I are quite talkative, extroverted people, even in a room full of strangers. My children, having grown up in that kind of environment, seem to have “inherited” that from us. So far so good. I hope that when my kids have to confront teasing and bullying that they’ll have the skills to respond in a way that “thwarts the enemy” so to speak, in a socially acceptable way. I think that between that ability, and applying the scriptural teaching to ” ?pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you,” that for the most part, children can learn to overcome this inevitable part of childhood.
There are, now, a number of books that address this. Maybe we should read one in September?
My two girls want to play with her, and sometimes I can look out and see them having lots of fun together, but there are many times my youngest will come home crying and I have to explain once again to the girls that ostracizing somebody is going to mean I won’t let them play together anymore. And then things get better, for a while.
I would recommend that if you are going to have them play together, that you do it at your house so you can monitor and referee and teach as necessary. It’s hard to know what to do when we don’t see what is happening.
Thank you for writing about this. I, too, was bullied as a child at school and church, and never learned how to deal with it properly. Instead I ended up making some very poor choices based on my overwhelming desire to be accepted and loved, and have paid a heavy price. I don’t think any of those kids have the slightest idea what their treatment did to me, and that makes me very sad. My children have been blessed to have very wonderful friends at church and in the neighborhood, and I am so grateful for this because, honestly, if I had the slightest hint that any bullying were going on, I think I’d beat up the offending child. And that would be my worst decision yet. (Still not over it yet, am I?)
Ladanea, welcome and thank you for your comments. I don’t have any idea how to get “over it.” It’s not the worst thing that could happen to anyone, but the residual still comes up now and again.
facethemusic,
I love the humor suggestions! Especially the short of stature one. Of course humor don’t always work since some people/kids are bound and determined to be bullies no matter what. But still, the more tools you can have in your war chest, the better. And I’m sure if you can practice them beforehand, they just might work.
The self-deprecating humor didn’t work with Bob. He just added it to his repertoire.
Great article. Painful, too.
Allison, I just went down that long road with you. I wasn’t a target much, but I saw such things over and over. I am so sorry. I love this article and have passed it on. I think it was very important for you to _first_ share the real, long pain of the situation and then show the resolve. People who haven’t seen it don’t care much, and they need to see why they should care.
Thanks for sharing a personal pain you have carried. Maybe all of us can do our part to make sure it doesn’t happen to those where we serve.
Thank you, ChanJo. I appreciate that very much this morning.
I have been criticized elsewhere about my delivery of this article. But honestly, I don’t know how else to deliver the experience I had. I don’t know how else to convey how it felt and what it did to my soul, except to just lay it out there as it sits in my heart. There it is. Do we care or not? Is it a problem worth addressing, or not? I think it is and have appreciated all the insight and thoughts from all of you.
THere is a lot here. I’ve read most of it. LIke most everyone, I too have experienced bullying both as a child and seen my children mistreated. AND YOU CAN’t ALWAYS MOVE darn it! AND a LOT — most of the bullying happened at church with yw leaders taking a blind eye. while it was happening i was so frustrated and hurt and worried that if my children did not have good friends in the gospel they would not stay and truthfully it has had an affect on their lives.
and it can hurt to see those bully’s grow up and marry in the temple and be yw leaders themselves and wonder at the justice of it all. but very probably they have issues i don’t know about, hurts of their own they have to deal with.
all things give us experience though. I can only have faith that God knows what he is doing.
I talked to those young women leaders too(whose daughters were inflicting the pain)– one was the wife of the first counselor in our ward and oh so pious. she just stared blankly at me as if i had made a faux paux for even bringing the subject up.
the bottom line is we all have different experiences in our lives that effect who we are but ULTIMATLELY who we become depends on how we decide to process what happens to us.
one person can be bullied and they can decide to never go to that church again if that’s what kind of people it produces.
another person can see that a bully’s actions are not what any RELIGION teaches and certainly not the true gospel of Christ.
my heart goes out to any mother watching their children go through these difficult circumstances now, we can’t change others actions, we can only change our own.
do all you can to right injustices and then forgive (it will ease your pain )and leave it to God.
I might add that a person might decide in their hurt and anger to “never go to church again” but then later – hours maybe, days, sadly sometimes years later- that giving up on the gospel or not attending church is not the answer. life is a process.
Very well said, Daisy.
Ditto what agardner said. Thanks daisy.
I have been criticized elsewhere about my delivery of this article.
What were you supposed to do? Thank Bob for allowing you the opportunity to grow and develop in ways you wouldn’t have without being tortured for years? Sheesh. Let’s not talk about what really can happen, because it makes people uncomfortable. Or maybe the complainer was a “Bob”.
Where and by who? Or is it whom? I can never tell.
Are we supposed to pretend this problem does not exist? Because it does, as evidenced by the comments here. Hellooooooo! Just because some one is a Mormon does not make them a nice person at church.
I will say again, what I’ve said before, we have to address the subject of bullying at church right away, everytime, all the time, if it is happening! If some leader, or pious first counselor’s wife get’s their knickers in knot from the truth then so be it. Your husband’s calling is in no way a reflection of your righteousness, your standing with God or you place in line for the Celestial Kingdom.
The critique was made by email, but it was posted briefly on a site as well. I asked for clarification, but haven’t received any, so I’m not really sure what the problem was except that they didn’t seem to like my tone. As I said, I’m not sure what other tone I could have used. Maybe I’m not sure what tone I DID use, but my intent was simply to give a glimpse of what was in my heart as a child. :confused:
Anyway, eden, I think you’re right. It does have to be dealt with. And I think the only way to deal with it is very honestly–particularly with regard to what the bullying actually DOES to people. That is not going to be a cheerful, tidy Primary story. All these kids could answer the Primary story questions just as if they read it directly out of the manual. It was the application that dropped into the big black hole.
Anyone remember the probably overly dramatic church movie Cyber in the Snow? Everyone in my class, even the Gang of Bob, seemed to respond to the “poor kid” in the movie and all of them thought the other kids should have been kind. I remember watching it in my class and thinking that NOW they would get it! Now they’d understand. Now they would stop. Did they know that some days I wanted to die? Did they know I was hospitalized with an ulcer in SECOND grade due to the anxiety over facing them? Now they could see what cruelty did!
But there was absolutely zero connect between this understanding and these thoughts and their BEHAVIOR.
FWIW, this is something I really try to work on with my own Valiant 11. I try to connect every week what they do with REAL people, with what they SAY in class. They all know the correct answers. They need to USE them. We all do.
Lol Alison, I think you’ve been spending too much time in cyber-space. It’s Cipher in the Snow.
Yes, it was overly dramatic, but it sure did hit home for me. I thought it was a good flick.
You make a great point about the connection between understanding and behavior. If we could answer that question (not just in bullying but in all aspects of life) wouldn’t life be a lot easier? For some reason we as humans sometimes think the lesson only applies to other people and can’t see the message that’s in it for us.
Elder Holland’s latest conference address (April 07) addresses how our words can effect people. Eleven year olds would be old enough to get this.
:bigsmile: Gosh, I kept looking at that as I typed it. I thought, “Wow, what did we think “cyber” meant back then?” And I remembered a New Era story my sister read to me called something like “Cyrano the Cybernet.” Figured there must be a connection. :tongue: I’m really slow today!
Eden, I actually have that talk open on my treadmill stand. I’ve been reviewing it as I run each day. Really great message, one that I need to review about every four minutes.
I remember that story! Wow – that takes me back.
Mom, I think that means we both qualify as ancient!
My sister and I shared a room most of our lives. She is four years older. (Read that: “super ancient”) One year she decided to read stories to me each night. (I was in later elementary school.) She usually read from the New Era and explained all the stories to me when I was clueless. I don’t know if it was some personal progress thing or if she just came up with the idea, but it’s one of my favorite memories of her when we were kids. Along with the time she stole the refrigerator box and how she had to plug her ears to get to sleep because I talked so much. Yea, I know you’re all shocked.
So Alison,
Were you like me in that you were always sitting in the back of the classroom by yourself because you couldn’t stop talking? Every year, my parents would receive the same sad scenario of “daughter is very intelligent and doing well but won’t shut-up” kind of a thing. I am convinced at this point in my life that my eyesight was signficantly altered from having to squint at everything from the very back of the room. I’ve considered legal action. Let’s see, are Siegfried and Jenson still practicing? I can see it now: “Idaho woman sues Utah school district for damaged retinas – District retaliates with “Blame it on the lips”. :tongue:
Actually, my lips kind of hurt too. Hmmmm…………
Older than you think, Alison! I wasn’t in elementary school when I read that the first time.
Help an old woman across the street?
:surprised: :bigsmile: heather, you have no idea! My parents always heard, “Alison does very well in her schoolwork, but she visits with her neighbor too much.”
I could never figure out why they thought I was talking to Sister Winkler.
Let me know how the litigation goes. :bigsmile:
mom, once we’re 40, it’s all just a big mush pot of wrinkles and wisdom. We no longer need to get picky about which particular decade we belong to. :bigsmile:
Frankly, I’m always so glad to have “older” people join in. They are underrepresented due to the technology–and they have crucial viewpoint, experience, wisdom.
I’m teaching my kids to be kind, compassionate and loving. But when someone is mean or rude to you, you tell them to stop, that they are not allowed to talk to you like that. Look them in the eye. Don’t back down. Don’t apologize for standing your ground. Don’t try to get the approval of the other person. Let them know you have power in the situation. Giving someone else all of the social power to control what happens to you is a very bad idea.
When I was 9, there was a girl who tormented me on the bus, every single day. She was LDS, we were in the same ward, she had a reputation for being very, very good. But she threatened to beat me up every day. So one day when we got off the bus, I told her I was sick of it and to take her best shot. Three years of judo served me pretty well and she ended up flat on her back. She left me alone after that. Not because she was afraid of me, but because I’d regained my social power and the other kids could see that. I wasn’t the weak person, the one the other kids could afford to pick on.
There were other situations throughout my teens where people tried to bully and pick on me. We were poor, I was awkward, I made an easy target. But I stood up for myself, every time. I went to the ring leader, every time. One time at music camp, where I was on scholarship, a pack of girls were tormenting me, calling me names everyday on the way to practice. So one night back at our cabin, when everyone was there, I confronted the ringleader, asking her why she was treating me that way. She made a few excuses and after every excuse, I stood up for myself and told her she had to stop. I wouldn’t go away. I stood there bothering her for at least 20 minutes, not backing down. Eventually a few other girls in the cabin joined in, telling her she ought to be nice to me. And once she saw I wasn’t the total easy target she’d thought I was, she stopped. Bullies often won’t stop until you make it so difficult, so uncomfortable for them to continue bullying you that they find a different target. That’s why ignoring it, or trying to avoid it, or trying to be nice to the bully doesn’t work.
I think getting bullying to stop sometimes can be achieved by talking to someone, through getting through to someone, by appealing to their better nature. The problem with relying on appealing to someone’s better nature, is that you’re gambling that they have one or that they will care about what you have to say. And you’re still leaving them the power to make that choice. Changing the power dynamic, taking away their social power to bully you – you’re not relying on what they choose to do. You’re taking away the choice.
Bullies are jerks. Trying to change a bully by talking to them about Christlike love isn’t very effective.
Sue, welcome! This is a very important observation.
I have a couple of questions for you about application. In the first example, with the girl on the bus, what if she had cleaned your clock? IN the second, what if the other girls had sided with the bully, not you?
I love your thoughts and really do think you’re on the right track, I can just see some situations when this might break down and I’m wondering what you’d do.
You know, I think you have to have a list of possible responses to bullying and keep trying until you get the one that works. Appealing to someone’s better nature might work in some cases and using humor might work in others. We are dealing with this with our oldest daughter, who makes an easy target for many reasons. We are working on teaching her skills like, don’t take it—say something, ANYthing to them when they threaten you; have a pat response for when they tell you you’re walking too slow (like, what are you in a hurry for? can’t wait to do more math? or I’m not in a hurry right now, why don’t you walk in front of me), speak loudly in a firm voice, tell the teacher IMMEDIATELY (because it is harder to address when the problem is a week old and is not readily visible to authority figures). . . there has to be more. ANYway, it’s been nice to re-read this tonight as it has been on my mind. The other thing we are worrying about is how to stop bullying in the home. We are noticing some clear bullying between siblings and I am not convinced it is enough to say “brothers and sisters fight” or it’s normal for them to bicker. Bickering is one thing and could, perhaps, be ignored. But what about when the bully is your brother or sister? What about when one child is clearly being cruel to another? We are working hard at always “naming the behavior” and stating that it must stop: “That is bullying, that will not happen in our home–take 5 and calm down while you think of a different way to handle this” . . . but that seems so lame at times. what to do, what to do . .. .
Pinged again. :bigsmile:
With this being such a popular site, I feel like I should get all done up before getting on
:bigsmile: I guess I’d better take off the pink, fuzzy slippers and put some shoes on!
Silver, thanks for being our eyes out there. I don’t know how to find that stuff!
Honestly, I don’t watch many blogs. I’ve stumbled upon them for the most part. Dumb luck, I suppose.
Ironically, I could really use that luck elsewhere.
Just joining this blog…
This sort of thing happens to adults at Church, too. Of course, the methods of torment are more “grown-up” and less mature, like gossip, moralizing, etc… but it still happens.
Recently, I was taken aside by a woman in my ward for my most recent “chastisement”. She pulled me into an empty room to criticize me and ridicule me for misinterpreting a “joke” she made about me (in poor taste) in front of the entire Relief Society. Yes, that’s right… smear me with tactless jokes in public, and then belittle me for taking it seriously. She was so harsh and rude… I ran out of the building crying and shaking. Of course, the gossip is that I somehow wronged her… yet again.
I spoke to the Bishop about it, expecting him to understand my feelings. It didn’t happen. I should be able to go to Church without being verbally assaulted, shouldn’t I? Isn’t there some code of conduct (reverence?) for adults at Church? Shouldn’t I be able to feel safe for at least those 3 hours every week? The Bishop suggested that I attend another ward if I don’t feel safe with this woman.
I know that I’m not the only one who has felt tormented by this woman’s criticism and gossiping. I just don’t understand it… why won’t anyone say or do anything? Why won’t the Bishop talk to her about her behavior? Why doesn’t she know better? Will she ever learn differently if no one does anything?
I really enjoyed this post, and I felt strengthened by it… knowing that I’m not alone.
I’ve decided not to run away to another ward. This is my home, and I belong here, regardless. I’m not going to let her chase me away.
I’ve also decided not to keep quiet about it. I don’t have to gossip about her, but I can let other people know what’s been going on. I’m finding that there are other people who are relieved by my speaking up, because they’ve been feeling the same way.
And, oddly enough… this woman has stopped attending Relief Society. (What a blessing!)
I find it interesting that the Bishop encouraged you to go to another ward. Generally, that is strongly discouraged. It sounds like there’s a lot more going on here.
That being said, you’ll find mean people in every ward. Trust me, I’ve been around the block a time or two. :tooth: Running away never solves anything. Part of the point of church is to learn how to get along with people, methinks.
I am about to pull a no-no: is your bishop a stupid, self-centered asinine moron? I cannot even fathom the fact that a man “in tune with the Lord” would even begin to suggest you go to another ward.
YES you should feel safe in your ward, and at least for those three hours. What that woman did and continues to do is appaling and she should be strung up by her toes!
But you also need to realize, that a bishop is not there to solve everyone’s problems either. If you can work it out on your own, then do it. This is a case where the two people in question need to, and should work it out on their own, with say the help of the RS Pres. I would also say, try and work this out, outside of church time too, in a neutral setting.
My suggestion is that you ask this sister over, or go to her, tell her how her comments made you feel, and that you did take them seriously. I would also tell her how the confrontation at church made you feel. If you can’t do it face to face, write a letter and send it to her. Pray for guidance and the spirit to know what to say. Also assure her that you want to work it out so that she feels comfortable and you feel comfortable at church. You might even find that having a frank discussion that this misunderstanding is not as great of a hurdle as you think. If she does not respond in kind, at least you know you tried, and that now it’s on her.
Seriuosly though, being the bigger person is such a pain sometimes :bigsmile:
why is it that we seem to cater to the people that are making the lives of others miserable. maybe she is just a rotten person, and will never change. it doesn’t make it any easier for those that are being belittled and hurt by her to go to church to say that we need to love and forgive. Yeah I get that we need to love and forgive, but come on, does jj really need to sit down with her to Talk it out? I mean coem on, why do the people getting attacked have to be the one to fix the problem? If others see it happening, it should be addressed and taken care of. it is so unfair to expect the person getting picked on to “be the bigger person” all the time!!!. When are we going to actually do something about the bullies that intimidate the people around us, instead of expecting them to just deal???????????????????
(sorry, feeling icky and preggo, taking it out on everybody)
Everyone can change, and everyone deserves a chance to change. And we are commanded to forgive, all thru the scriptures, all thru the modern day messages from prophets and such. Also, being proactive, instead of reactive will always yield better results–always. The Lord, always gives each of us second, third, fourth, chances to change. What if God just said, “Well, she’s a rotten egg, it’s the telestial kingdom for her!” No, he doesn’t say that–he gives us a way to come back, to change, to REPENT, to take part of the Atonement, sometimes, most of the time it’s thru the actions of others that this is facilitated. This is the core part of the Plan of Salvation–part of why we are here on earth, to change to become more like HIM.
Newsflash…life is unfair. All of us have been wronged in our lives, what if no one ever took the initiave to go and solve the problem? Or work things out? And yes it stinks to have to go and be the bigger person, but who wins in the end? Both people.
I say talking to this sister, is doing something about it, and not just dealing with it. If JJ just “dealt with it” as you suggest, she would never talk to this sister, and allow the miscommunication of others intimidate her into never showing her face at church again. By talking to this sister and saying something like, “Hey what you said, upset me, I’m sorry I took it seriously, but I did. How can we come to a resolution about this issue?” This is dealing with the problem in a rational, loving and CHRISTLIKE way.
I get that we need to “turn the other cheek” but when a bunch of people are being harassed by the same person, and everyone sits by and does nothing, it is wrong. Not everyone is a rational human being, and will not respond to “Please stop being mean to me.” Life doesn’t work that way. This seems to have gone way past the “you upset me, how can we resolve this” When the Bishop is even afraid to say something to someone… well lets just figure something is really wrong. You can try to be as rational and loving and yes, Christlike, as you want. Some people will just never stop. And sorry to burst anyones bubble, but there are indeed people out there that do not change. I agree that we need to give them the chance, but even Christ got ticked off sometimes!
Before we come down too hard on this bishop – I just want to remind everyone that what we are hearing is only from one side. Not saying that the side we are giving isn’t accurate, but I’m sure there is much more to the story than what we have here. As I’ve heard before, “You have your story, I have mine, and reality is probably somewhere in between”.
Carry on!
true! maybe the poor man didn’t really understand what was going on, or thought, oh they’ll work it out. (but telling her to go to another ward was a little weird!)
Well, Kiar, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. In my expeirence, when I’ve frankly, confronted someone at church who I’ve had a problem with, the problem has resolved itself. You’ve also offered no solution as to what you would do in this situation…would you just sit back and take it? Would you and your friends run this lady out of the ward? What would you do, I”m curious.
And Agardner, I totally agree with you — we’ve only heard one side. In my experience, bishops are very over worked fellows, who need to be given the benefit of the doubt most of the time. They are also human and need our forgivness because they make mistakes.
east-of-eden: when I have had a problem with someone, i have gotten it resolved. But I watched a woman torment my MIL for several years, with all sorts of attempts by several people to resolve the issue, until finally the other woman moved to another state. For a little while, everyone breathed a sigh of relief. Until the letters started to arrive. My MIL didn’t open them after the first one, since it was full of hate and meaness, that she began to even dread checking the mail. I would not “run this lady out of the ward”, that is totally extreme. But if she is not willing to change , I would try to ensure that she didn’t keep attacking the people around her.
I don’t have a cut and dried solution, because every situation is different. I think what I am trying to say is that some people ARE just mean. And you can give them as many chances as you like. But it still boils down to the fact that they have free agency and if they want to be mean, they are going to stay that way. I think its great when people can view that world with rose colored glasses, and that the places they live they have lots of sweet wonderful people to associate with, and not a rotten one in the bunch. But here in reality land, it doens’t always work that way.
I DO however agree with you on the overworked bishop thing. He may have just had a bad day. They are indeed human, and make mistakes. its ok to make mistakes. it’s what we do. But to suggest someone go to another ward before sitting down with both parties to find out what is actually going on is a little shortsighted.
And, oddly enough… this woman has stopped attending Relief Society. (What a blessing!)
I have had an ugly situation like this, and it was so painful. Times like this test one to the limit. But I cant’ help but think if there is anyone who needs to be where the Spirit is, it’s this offending sister. To rejoice that she isn’t there doesn’t seem like it will make the situation better. I can understand relief, and don’t blame you for feeling this way, but shouldn’t we be concerned when someone leaves? Isn’t it possible that the reason she is being so nasty is because there is something wrong in her life and she needs validation and support and is seeking it in the wrong way by cutting others down? I just think that in all our analyzing these painfully difficult situations, we ought not forget that the offenders are children of God, too, and perhaps they need more than any of the victims do. NOT that I’m trying to justify that bad behavior, or that I’m being callous to the pain, because I know how awful it is. But in the end, I’m concerned that she stopped coming to Church. Maybe she has closed her heart and has made her choice. But maybe, just maybe, she needs someone to reach out in love to help her figure out how to be a positively contributing member of the ward. If she’s not coming to RS anymore, I hope someone is concerned about that and reaches out to her…even if it can’t be you (which I can understand). I’d mention this to someone, a leader, so they can reach out to her and figure out what is up.
jjwhit, just wanted to welcome you here!
Yes, we should but, frankly, I think sometimes it’s like putting someone in prison. We don’t WANT anyone to have to go to prison, but sometimes they do enough damage that we must consider protecting others. I have a big, giant beef about coddling youth who are destructive, while they torment and damage the youth who are trying to do the right thing. It happens all the time and we’ve been a few rounds on it on MM in the past many years.
thank you Alison!
great analogy! I’ve often wondered how this applies to home and visiting teaching. I know everyone is supposed to be assigned a home and visiting teacher but what about the people who are verbally abusive and horrible to their home and visiting teachers? Yes, we need to show them Christ-like love, etc. . . but there are some I have felt terrible about assigning. Like, how could I ask anyone to visit someone who will likely yell at them and hang up the phone on them or slam the door in their face after disparaging them loudly for any possible offense that has ever been given by any member of the church?
When I was RSP, I would always assign these people to myself, or members of my presidency, because of the same concerns. It made a bit more work but at least me and another member of my presidency were the only ones getting yelled at.
but don’t you have your limits? I’m not sure I could convince myself to keep trying if the response was always awful. . . but then again, maybe that is just an attitude problem! I suppose if I told myself that I WILL likely get yelled at, then maybe I could consider it a huge victory to just have a civilized conversation! like, an unexpected bonus!
I have a question about this. Don’t these people ever–as they yell–tell you not to come? I know that you can’t drop them unless they remove their names from the church records, but can’t you write letters occasionally? If they yell at a letter, no one is the worse for wear.
In Boca I visited about ten people most of the time, but a couple of them were assigned as “letter routes.” One of those actually turned into a really wonderful contact, even though she had specifically requested NO VISITS.
those are the easy ones!
Seriously, though, there is one sister who DOES say she wants visiting teachers (and frequently complains loudly of never having home or visiting teachers who come to see her, even though she has had very faithful, patient home and visiting teachers) but treats them badly. Some months they get a warm reception and have a nice visit (although it is hard to get through a visit without hearing loads of hostility and criticism of ward members) and some months she is horribly rude and yells and is generally hateful. It seems easy enough to just allow the visits when she is polite and leave quickly when she is not but I know that I find it hard to move on and shake it off when I have an encounter with someone who is mean. I feel like I’m sending lambs to the slaughter saying, “good luck. hope it doesn’t hurt too bad this time.” My calling is as VT coordinator so I am not ultimately responsible for the assignments (thank goodness!) but I still *feel* responsible when I am handing a sister her new route 
The people who yell and are nasty aren’t necessarily those who don’t want VT’s.
We have a woman in our ward who can be downright hostile. She’s a very bitter woman and complains about everything. But she wants VT’s and comes to church every now and then.
I don’t even remember what happened, but somehow, she got all upset with me over something.
I didn’t feel at ALL like I’d done anything wrong, and that she’s simply assumed my intentions, but nevertheless, she’d gotten upset with me so I wrote her a little note apologizing.
Instead of accepting the apology, she called the RS president and chewed her out, about me, saying that I was awful and had the nerve to write her an apology note instead of calling her on the phone to do it.
We had a sister who had MANY problems, migraines, addictions, mental issues, etc.
She came to church every week, and spent half of her time there berating people.
She played the piano for the choir, and half of the choir stopped coming because she’d yell at them. But no one ever said anything to her. Everyone knew she was that way, and everyone just sort of put up with it or tried to ignore it. But they didn’t want to be berated by her either, so they stopped coming to choir.
My husband mentioned it to the Bishop, who was already well aware of this sister and her issues, but nothing ever seemed to come of it.
She would call me every now and then, telling me she was having a mirgraine and couldn’t handle her daughter at the moment, and asking me to take her daughter for the day.
I didn’t mind at all– honestly, I didn’t want her daughter in the house with her, she was downright abusive if you ask me.
I don’t remember why, but there was an occasion when I actually couldn’t get her daughter– she got very angry and hung up on me. Then a few minutes later, she called back and cussed me out. A couple days later she called and threatened me physically.
That was the last straw for my husband– he went in to the Bishops office the next day- pulling me along, told the Bishop what happened, and said very sternly, “If you don’t do something about it, I will.”
The Bishop said “Bill, you’re coming on a little strong.”
And my husband proceeded to remind him, that he (my husband) wasn’t just a priesthood holder, but a police officer, and that this sister was committing crimes with her addictions, was guilty of abuse with her daughter, was making physical threats and had been doing these things for years, with no real priesthood interaction. Then he said, “Yes, part of your job as a Bishop is being a Shepherd, and love people unconditionally and to bring them to the fold. Helping Sis. _______ to turn her life around is a part of that. But a Shepherd’s job is also to protect your flock. And if you won’t fulfill that part of your calling, then I will.”
On the one hand I was glad that my hubby had stood up for me like that, but on the other hand I was a little embarrased that he’d spoken so forcefully to the Bishop.
you should never be embarassed that your husband stood up for you. Bravo for him!!! It was completly ridiculous that the woman was allowed to treat people the way she did for so long. In our society, we spend way too much time making excuses or ignoring rude and dangerous behaviour of people that could potentially harm us. (I know I am going to get blasted for this, already have) People need to take responsibility for thier actions, and yes, even be punished (however that might come about) for those actions, especially when they are hurting our loved ones.
Yes Bishops are overworked and ocerwhelmed. But that should never be an excuse for someone in the ward verbally abusing and intimidating other members. We are too afraid that if something is done, someone might “be offended and fall away from the church” The questions I pose to that is this: at what cost are we letting those people stay? Can we let our children see this and think it acceptable, or our converts be chased away by Bro or Sis So-and-So, because they have always been that way and we don’t want to offend them?
WOW! What a story! I think your husband did the right thing Tracy. I think I would have done the same thing, and I know my husband would have done the same thing as well.
As for me when I was RSP, with the “problem children” as I called them– Yes, a person can only take so much and I pondered that in prayer A LOT over these sisters! I finally came to the conclusion, and I had this confirmed by the spirit, that I had done my job with a certian sister, and I was no longer accountable for her. I was walking out of her house after a very hostile visit and fretting over it still and the prompting just came to me. It was a shock and a relief all at the same time. I’m not saying that this is the solution in all cases, but for me it was the answer. And I don’t think there is a blanket answer for every situation. Every person needs to be dealh with indivdually.
Generally, I will say, that I think people are afraid to comment/confront to people if they are behaving badly in the ward, for fear of getting yelled at or they fear they will be the reason that person leaves the chruch. I’ve never been afraid to go and resolve my concerns or issues with people in the ward, like I suggested up-thread. But I know there are people who are not as brave (or a looney, take your pick) as I am in that regard. I think that’s the time to pull in the RSP or the bishop–after we’ve tried on our own. I also think that if a person leaves, after all that the ward can do, then let them go. Elder Bednar’s talk on choosing to be offended is a very powerful talk that I think we all can learn from.
Hm. I wonder. Though I see the point of not wanting abusive people around you, the conclusion to let them go or “do something about it” (with the connotation that “something” means “something forceful”) doesn’t seem to mesh with my understanding of Christ’s methods.
it by no means has to be forceful. But people in positions of authority need to either speak to them or find a way to make things better. Christ said to turn the other cheek… but eventually you run out of cheeks.
I guess I didn’t say that very well– I was very glad that he stood up for me. I would hope that ANY husband would stand up for his wife.
The part that was a little embarassing is that he really WAS speaking very sternly– almost like a parent correcting his child, and since it was to the Bishop I was kind of like– “Yikes– can you talk to a Bishop that way?” I would have tried to say it in a more “this really has me concerned and I’d appreciate your help” kind of way. Of course, that’s how I am, and my husband doesn’t put up with things the way I do. And let me tell ya– the guy gets stuff DONE the way HE handles it– you know? When Bill talks- people listen. He might have to handcuff you to the chair to make it happen, but you’ll listen. :rolling:
And it was only after my husband sort of lectured the Bishop that anything happened with this sister.
What’s kind of funny, is that shortly after, that Bishop moved and we had 2 other Bishops after him. Both of them would call my husband every now and then– wanting “counsel” on how to handle different situations with ward members, especially if it involved anything to do with the law, abuse, crime, drugs/alcohol, etc.
Then a couple months ago we got another Bishop, and he called my husband as one of the counselors. When one of the previous Bishop’s heard the news announced in his ward, he called my husband to congradulate him on his new calling, and said “Well, it’s about time. You’ve been a Bishop’s counselor for years now, and now you finally have the mantle to go with it.”
He didn’t mean he was going to go and beat her with a club, Silver– he meant that as a police officer, he could arrest her. And for more than one offense. He was saying, “look–you either handle it as her Bishop, or I’ll handle it with the law.”
This sister really needed to be reported to the police and family services. But the Bishop had been holding off, not wanting to get the law involved, figuring that he could just keep counseling with her and she’d repent and get help. But YEARS had gone by, and after we moved into the ward, we slowly began to realize the problem, and heard about things from ward members, her own brother, her ex-husband and her kids. But the Bishop was never acting on anything when it came to the legal side of things with this sister. So my husband had enough- and now he had proof, too. (When she threatened me physcially, it was recorded on our answering machine)
WOW! awesome for you guys! I just love cops! (my husband will be one in 7 months) Especially ones that hold the priesthood. Our old ward now has a Sheriff as its Bishop, and he has been in many situations were he was called on to deal with “member issues” before he was called as Bishop. He was always very fair and private, so I really look up to those men who have the law and the Lord on their side!
what a great (and accurate) description
My thoughts on the prison analogy…. I understand drawing boundaries, but it sounds to me like she just left without anyone acknowledging that she left, but rather rejoicing in it. Has anyone talked to her about her inappropriate behavior? Prison is a deliberate consequence given after known infractions of a law. Letting someone leave on their own, unrecognized by the Church, seems like a different thing to me entirely. If the Church should do something, it should be clear and associated with a law, not just letting someone slip through the cracks because no one likes to deal with them.
It might be different if, after counseling with a bishop and warnings and such, if there truly was destruction going on, something maybe would be done (although I don’t know what). I just can’t really think of anything in our doctrine that justifies letting someone walk out of church because of some altercations (awful as they may have been) and not having someone go after and at least try to reach out, to help the person. I just suspect that someone engaging in that kind of destructive behavior NEEDS the gospel and needs some help.
Michelle, I’m sure the sister you’re talking about (this is the one that jjwhit, mentioned, correct?) still has home and visiting teachers.
I mentioned some time ago in a different thread, the young woman who attacked me at church. (You guys must think I live a horrid place– it’s actually a great ward– but it encompasses quite a bit of the inner city- so we’ve inherited some of the problems that are typical in that part town) She threw a fit just because I asked her to please not talk during the prayer. She immediately jumped down my throat, “don’t you #&$*@%^ tell me what to do $*&#%!”
She was cussing up a storm, putting on her thug routine, and when I told her to come out into the hall with me so we could talk (mostly, I just wanted to get her away from the other girls so they wouldn’t have to hear her mouth) she threw me up against the wall. This was all right in front of the youth and other leaders.
She’d threatened violence before, against other leaders and girls, but this was the first time she acted on it. And it wasn’t the first time she’d cussed anyone out either.
The Bishop (the one previous to our current one) had me write up a report, got written reports from the other leaders who saw it all, got her side of the story as well, and ended up telling her that she wasn’t welcome back until she could come and not be a threat to the members. This was a 15 year old girl. She hasn’t been back since and that was what– 4 or 5 years ago?
The ward has intermittent contact with her family– but they’ve all been inactive, long before her fit during YW. The only reason she was even coming was because her mother MADE her come (the YW president would pick her up) because she wanted her out of the house.
She had a horrible home life, lives in a horrible neighborhood– she’s just a product of her home life and environment. Very sad situation– and sure, as was said about the other sister, she NEEDS the gospel, it’s probably one of the only things that could ever save her from her own self-destruction. On the other hand, you can’t sacrfice the flock in an attempt to save the one.
We couldn’t allow our other youth to continue to be harassed and threatened by this girl. My kids weren’t old enough at the time, but if they had been, there’s no WAY I would have allowed my children to go to Mutual activities as long as she was there. I would have sent them to another ward’s program. And other leaders had the exact same feelings.
everyone NEEDS the Gospel… but when it comes down to the personal safety of ourselves and those we are responsible for at church (YW, YM, Primary) sometimes a line needs to be drawn, and consequences exacted.
Wanted to report something. This week the mother of “Bobette” (from the original article, the one who bullied my daughter), just read th article a few days ago. She emailed me about it. Again, she apologized. I don’t believe she read through all the discussion, but, as I told her, the point of the article was the miracle that occurred. I think it was necessary to show the pain caused to me, to my daughter, to everyone who experiences this.
But this story had a happy ending BECAUSE DaNae was willing to do something uncomfortable and possibly problematic (and was even willing to “drive away” the bully by clearly defining a standard) AND because her parents responded so perfectly.
Anyway, now that the subject was between us again, I asked her what she did, because I’ve been asked that so many times. She told me and I will post her response if/when I get her explicit permission. I hope she gives it because I think we can all learn from it.
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Tracy, unless I’d seen similar situations myself, I don’t think I would believe you.
Jessica’s first year at YW Camp (when she was 12), included a whole bunch of girls who are much as you describe. Their families weren’t members, though, the girls joined because the missionaries were cute and the parents were THRILLED to have someone take their kids all day Sunday, and a couple of times during the week. They never drove them, never contributed. The girls didn’t pay for their camp fees and didn’t participate in the fundraisers.
Then the stake had the audacity to mix up the ward and put kids in rooms without anyone familiar.
When they got to camp, they broke every rule. They stole most of the valuable stuff my daughter had (like her flashlight and camp supplies), they stole from others too. They cursed constantly, roamed about, never attending the activities. (The camp that year was in kind of a beach resort–camping in South Florida in the summer is NO fun.) They threatened people and got in numerous physical brawls. They stood nose to nose with three priesthood leaders, threatening and using every word in the book.
And not a single girl was sent home. The tyrannized the entire camp. And not a single stake leader, male or female, would stand up to them. One of my friends, the ward YW president, slept with her glasses on and a mag flashlight in her hands on her chest, because she was scared to death.
When my daughter got home, I was livid. No one had the guts to defend the girls because, “We don’t want to drive them away from the church.”
Absolute hogwash. The drove DOZENS of girls away–the ones who followed the rules and wanted to have a spiritual experience.
This excuse makes me so angry because people purport to think that driving people away by requiring no standard is somehow acceptable, while “driving people away” be HAVING a standard isn’t.
I told the leaders that my girls would never attend camp in that stake again. Of course, the next winter they called me to be the wad camp director. I have never turned down a calling, but I told them I would ONLY accept if our ward had it’s OWN camp, away from the stake. So, of course, they called me to be assistant stake camp director. I told them I would accept and do all the planning, but that I would not attend the actual camp, nor would my daughter.
Then they sat down at the negotiation table.
They had already heard from my and myriad disgusted parents. But it hadn’t changed anything. So, I said I would accept AND go with a number of conditions. I don’t remember them all, but some were:
Camp as wards with ample leaders in each cabin who KNEW the girls
Every minute would be scheduled with no down time
No one could go UNLESS every child and every parent (every one, no exception) attended a meeting outlining expectations, standards, and conduct. Each child and parent had to sign a paper indicating that they understood what was expected AND every parent had to agree to pay for transporting the child home if they broke the rules. (And, of course, the stake had to agree that I could actually send girls home. Period.)
They agreed. And the rules were very specific and fairly strict (including items they could bring, participation, absolute modesty, treatment of others, etc.)
The camp that year was six hours away (NOT my choice), in a hot, humid, tick-filled tent camp. But we did not have ONE girl sent home (and I would have done it in a second), there was no bullying, and no cursing or threatening. The worst problems we had were sending a handful of girls back to their tents to put on longer shorts and one elementary-style spat between two girls who thought he other “dissed” them.
I guess I really feel that a threatening, chaotic, mean environment is a really HARD place to feel the Spirit and that having standards (even very firm ones when necessary) creates an environment where it’s POSSIBLE to do the good things.
One of the “mean girls” (not the worst in the stake, but the worst in my ward), who had tormented my daughter the first year, came to think of me as a confidante. She would ask me all sorts of questions about how to handle things correctly in her life. She softened up quite a bit, at least that week, in an environment where she simply wasn’t free to do what she usually did.
Gotta go make breakfast. Just wanted to touch base.
This excuse makes me so angry because people purport to think that driving people away by requiring no standard is somehow acceptable, while “driving people away” be HAVING a standard isn’t.
I just hope to make clear that by my comments about a different situation that I would be one who would want to sit by and let things happen like this kind of safety-threatening behavior. There are lines that need to be drawn, especially with these kinds of egregious examples.
I am shocked, though. I am grateful to say I’ve never experienced that kind of threat. Wow.
Perhaps D&C 121 is applicable in such circumstances.
Silver,
how do you mean? is there a specific verse you are referring to?
The whole thing. Especially when you remember that as members, there is a parallel between our responsibilities and those of the priesthood.
Thank you so much for sharing this, we are going through this with our 2 older boys who are Deacons, we have been in a new ward for 4 months and are trying to figure out the best way to resolve the issue. Fortunately, its not just our 2 boys but one other boy from another family that are being bullied at church, the leaders don’t seem to understand what is really occurring or they don’t want to get involved. We have spoken with the leaders in the past but nothing really has changed. We are working out a plan now on how to approach the leaders, the parents of the main bully as well as the bishopric if necessary. My boys have gotten to the point where they do not want to attend mutual or Sunday school for that matter. Most people don’t realize that this happens more often than not at church, it may look like teasing or playing or goofing around but you have to be careful and draw the line when it becomes to much, especially if you are a leader or teacher of children. I am in Primary and watch for these types of issues so I can put a stop to it immediately. My husband has been trained in school bullying and has a lot of knowledge concerning that, we just never thought we would have to deal with it at church.
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What an incredible story! This brings so much insight into your life. You are made of stuff tougher than steel.
Wow, I am so sorry you had to live through this and your daughter. I think I am one who might brush things off to avoid a conflict. This story clearly shows that boldly confronting wrongs is the best way to approach many wrongs.
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Tammy (very belatedly) and Richard, thanks for your comments. It’s amazing and very sad that this kind of behavior occurs at church of all places. It’s so easy for bullying to turn a child (or adult!) against the institution where the bullying takes place.
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