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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeSep 24th 2008
As so many LDS homeschoolers get swept away after following the Pied Piper of homeschooling into the river--and most won't take the time to do real research and analysis--I've taken upon myself to post some of the things I have found. Please, please, THINK before you leap.
Oliver DeMille
BTW, just after the below blog was publicized, the article above was magically recommended for deletion. Much has been edited already.
Why I Don't Do Thomas Jefferson Education
A Thomas Jefferson Education?
Diploma DeMille
Report to Charter Commission on ILA
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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeSep 25th 2008
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- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeSep 25th 2008
Hmmm.... I actually heard about this when I lived in Utah for a short while. Didn't really know much about it though.
It sounds to me like it's another good idea "gone wild and to the extreme".
Personally, I love the general concept a literature based education. But wow-- it seems like Demille goes a little wacko with it.
The only "curriculum" I used when I first started homeschooling was "Five In A Row"-- a literature based curriculum. I ended up supplementing quite a bit with other math and science resources because I felt like it just wasn't enough. Barely scraping by, really. But I loved the idea of using literature as the foundation. But again- it sounds like the TJ Ed goes to the extreme. -
When I considered homeschooling a few years ago, most every homeschooler I talked to recommended TJEd. I looked over some of it, but since I never got completely serious about homeschooling, I kind of left it there.
There is an elder serving in our ward that attended, and is planning to return to, George Wythe. I guess they are building a new campus - in Blanding, I think? Of course he could not stop talking about how wonderful it is. But these articles definitely give me pause. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeSep 25th 2008
Blanding? Did you mean Eldorado?
Sorry. -
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- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeSep 26th 2008
Okay-- I didn't get that. What's the deal with Eldorado? -
- CommentAuthoronwardupward
- CommentTimeSep 26th 2008
First time poster here, however, I've been a lurker for awhile. I have a few questions regarding this thread...
Firstly, is it TJed's legitimacy you question, or Oliver Demille's? Secondly, why does this topic warrant a "sticky?"
I am a homeschooler, and have done real research and analysis over how to successfully teach my children. I have read into TJed and find its principles have merit. Questioning Oliver Demille's character is a separate issue from whether the method a family uses to teach is legitimate. I think if you choose a teaching avenue, and it works for you, then it's legit.
I don't question the "fad" concept of some methods, since I can understand the whole homeschool bandwagon arena. However, I would like to think that most people who homeschool don't do it lightly, and make it a personal decision, not a group activity.
One other poster used one "method" and then adapted it to her family's needs. I think that's true for most. The aspect of homeschooling I relish the most is that I can do what works for each child, and fit their studies to their needs and interests.
I guess my real question is what bothers you so much about tjed that you feel the need to "warn" people? Is is Demille, or the method? -
Here are some of the problems I have seen with this method.
The biggest problem I have with the legitimacy of this method is the promise: child plus TJED = leader and statesmen.
I do not see any way of evaluating that. It seems to me to be a very emotional pull (of course I want my child to be a leader not some follower who wouldn't? However most leaders did not have leadership as a goal, they saw a job that needed to get done, or a problem that needed to be fixed. They did not say I will be a leader and many were more concerned with service than leading).
I have only read the three main books and attended a convention in Salt Lake so I am no expert but I do know about the method.
One of the things that did not work for me with the method is Inspire, Don't Require. It may work with a few personalities but my kids tend to want to quit the minute the feel something is too hard. No matter how inspired they are they still don't go anywhere with anything unless they are required to do something. I have also had friends following the TJE method tell me I was flat out wrong to do this, that all my problems with getting my kids to do any learning, music practice would be gone if I just inspired them enough. But my kids were still inspired to do the learning or music they just wanted it to be easy, so for me it is Inspire and Require.
A child I know who is learning this way wants to read, however she is doing little to no practice on a daily basis because this is seen as requiring by the parent. So the child is inspired to read but cannot see that practice is the only way she will reach this goal.
I also have a problem with the Classics, not Textbooks. It only works it you want a liberal arts education. If you are more science oriented as my family is we need the textbooks to learn. If you go back and try and learn from some of the "classics" written by Einstein and others you are really studying history not current math and science technique and knowledge. So for us it is Classics and Textbooks.
There is also another problem I have seen that is not really part of the method but a result of the method in many (not all) cases. The kids of families using this method have a tendency to translate leadership into I am in charge and be very bossy.
Another problem I have come across is that many people feel like this is the only true way to homeschool. Not everyone who follows TJED believes this but many portray this as a better way than every other way. According to church teachings the only more "important" knowledge is spiritual knowledge.
Anyway these are just a few of the problems that I have seen. I have used many ideas I have gleaned from the TJED method but it is always best to look at pros and cons of any method. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeSep 26th 2008 edited
Welcome onwardupward!Posted By: onwardupwardFirstly, is it TJed's legitimacy you question, or Oliver Demille's?
Both.Secondly, why does this topic warrant a "sticky?"
Because I own the site and I want it to be sticky.
I have read into TJed and find its principles have merit.
Which ones do you think have merit? Happy to discuss that.Questioning Oliver Demille's character is a separate issue from whether the method a family uses to teach is legitimate. I think if you choose a teaching avenue, and it works for you, then it's legit.
I think this muddies the waters a bit. First, because I'm not talking about "the method a family uses." I'm talking about a very particular brand of homeschooling as described by DeMille. Second, we'd have to define "works," but that aside, I don't agree that if something produces a particular outcome, that itself legitimizes a method. For example, I know a man who was horribly abused by his parents who grew up to be a great father, author, and speaker. That doesn't mean that abuse "works" as a legitimate way to produce authors. See what I mean?I don't question the "fad" concept of some methods, since I can understand the whole homeschool bandwagon arena. However, I would like to think that most people who homeschool don't do it lightly, and make it a personal decision, not a group activity.
Now that is an interesting statement. I'm going to say something incredibly non-politically correct. I agree that few decide to homeschool on a whim. But I would also say that there is a HUGE amount of group-think in the homeschooling community AS WELL AS in the public school community.
Want proof? Look at how many homeschoolers use Saxon. It's NOT because they've done actual mathematical research and found it to be the most academically sound program on the planet.
One of the main points of my book, speech, etc., it to try to CONVINCE homeschoolers that they need to develop an educational philosophy through their own research, thought, prayer, etc. I have to say that only about 10% (I'm being generous) of homeschoolers have done so. (To be frank, about 1% of public schoolers have. Flame me.) I think it's MORE important for homeschoolers because they are the ones with all the options open to them--if they can just see them. Public schoolers have much greater limitations on how much input they have.
I'd almost say that anyone who says "We are ________" (TJEders, unschoolers, CMers, etc.) and puts a METHOD in that space hasn't done their homework.The aspect of homeschooling I relish the most is that I can do what works for each child, and fit their studies to their needs and interests.
Amen to that!
I guess my real question is what bothers you so much about tjed that you feel the need to "warn" people? Is is Demille, or the method?
Again, it's both.
DeMille because he has a pattern of deceptive behavior.
TJEd because there is such an air of religiosity about it that time and time again devotees refuse to discuss or even acknowledge it's flaws. I'm not talking about personal confrontation directed toward them, I'm talking about public forums where "detractors" are shouted down and myriad, exclusive, isolated TJEd groups that, very literally, censor out anything not "pure TJEd."
There is no perfect method. That being the case, it's damaging to homeschoolers and homeschooling when they can't even see the problems or limitations they are working with. TJEd is particularly flawed BECAUSE of the grandiose and often erroneous claims of the founders. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeSep 26th 2008 edited
Posted By: shanantThe biggest problem I have with the legitimacy of this method is the promise: child plus TJED = leader and statesmen. I do not see any way of evaluating that.
Exactly. And in the absence of a way to evaluate it, HOW CAN THE CLAIM BE MADE?It seems to me to be a very emotional pull.
Spot on, shanant. It's very clever marketing, really. Get them to feel that TJEd is THE WAY to have kids reach their potential and THE WAY to save humanity. No, I'm not exaggerating. Read the blog I link to. It's full of OD quotes.One of the things that did not work for me with the method is Inspire, Don't Require.
And the thing is, even within the actual TJEd model, the couplet is NOT ACCURATE! I have a whole page in my book devoted to THAT QUOTE. Makes me chase my tail!
If you try to discuss that quote with a TJEder, it will always turn out to be something utterly different. "Well, DeMille means ______." Interestingly, the ______ has about as many variations as the people who interpret it.for me it is Inspire and Require.
For me, anything BUT "inspire AND require" is lacking in common sense.I also have a problem with the Classics, not Textbooks. It only works it you want a liberal arts education. If you are more science oriented as my family is we need the textbooks to learn.
Oh, you had to go there, didn't you! Absolutely.
His claim that you should learn calculus, for example, by reading Newton's Principia is absurd. The claim itself proves that the man doesn't understand either Principia or calculus. Sincerely, I'd love to get him to go through that shtick with some actual scientists in the room instead a bunch of homeschoolers who have no idea what Principia is, but sure think it sounds mighty educated. -
Posted By: Alison Moore SmithI'd almost say that anyone who says "We are ________" (TJEders, unschoolers, CMers, etc.) and puts a METHOD in that space hasn't done their homework.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but in a way, it makes sense. I've read so many different homeschool books and educational methods and my philosophy is still evolving. I'm honing in on where I want to go and realize it's still going to have to be individualized for each child.
To give my background upfront on my knowledge of TJEd, I've read A Thomas Jefferson Education and a couple of lecture/seminar transcripts that I bought from GWC. I've also read what I could on-line and followed various discussions on homeschool forums. At first, many of the ideas were appealing to me until my dear, sweet, analytical husband started pointing out its flaws, i.e. reading Newton to learn calculus and its idea to learn math and science from the classics and inspire, not require, to name a couple.Posted By: shanant
Another problem I have come across is that many people feel like this is the only true way to homeschool. Not everyone who follows TJED believes this but many portray this as a better way than every other way. According to church teachings the only more "important" knowledge is spiritual knowledge.
Has anyone else wondered how much the LDS influence in TJEd has caused so many LDS members to follow it? I don't know if anyone has done an analysis of TJEd philosophy and LDS doctrine/culture, but I think it might be telling. It also may explain why so many are able to "trust the process." I wonder if this is a case of "if it has some true principles, it must all be true" type of thing. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeSep 26th 2008
Posted By: Amy EAt first, many of the ideas were appealing to me until my dear, sweet, analytical husband started pointing out its flaws
Beautiful! That is WHY I want to keep this discussion front and center. We HAVE to get past the, "Wow, a magic panacea!" stage to analyze what's being promoted. TJEd as a methodology falls apart under moderate scrutiny.Has anyone else wondered how much the LDS influence in TJEd has caused so many LDS members to follow it? I don't know if anyone has done an analysis of TJEd philosophy and LDS doctrine/culture, but I think it might be telling. It also may explain why so many are able to "trust the process." I wonder if this is a case of "if it has some true principles, it must all be true" type of thing.
Lots of great questions. I'll just throw this in. There is a REASON Utah is considered the scam capital of the US. -
So it's been a while since I've read the book, and I read about the NEW 8th key of the Seven Keys of Great Teaching from one of Alison's links, so I found an explanation of it here on a TJEd community website. The following quote is taken from that page under "The NEW 8th Key—Secure, Not Stressed."
When the temptation to return to requiring, textbooks, canned curriculum, and even public school arises, we as parents must go back to those feelings present when we first felt that TJEd was right for our family. We can trust that desire to give our children a chance to become truly educated, great men and women of character who will someday change the world. Our children have important missions to fulfill, And parents are equipped to help them live up to those missions. But we have to trust our hearts, our feelings, those whisperings from God.
Trusting the process yields the best results for a true Leadership Education. Just keep moving forward on the path you have chosen.
When I chose to educate my children at home, I decided after much research and prayer. Some days, when I wonder if I'm doing the right thing, I go back to the answers I'd received to remind myself that Heavenly Father approved of my decision. However, I do not expect that answer to be the last answer I receive regarding the education of my children. Children and families grow and change. Circumstances and situations change. I plan to homeschool my children until they are ready to go to college, but I hope I'm willing to listen if God feels differently in the future. -
To me, that is a freakishly scary quote.
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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeSep 27th 2008
Amen, Amy. So, we can "trust the desire" to DO TJEd, but not the desire to do something ELSE.
Ray, I couldn't have said it better myself. -
Thought this might be helpful to the discussion, too. Here is what the same site I linked to last night has on their FAQ page about the definition of someone doing TJEd.
How is TJEd different from other methods?
First of all, TJEd is not really a method, in and of itself. One can use almost any method and still apply TJEd principles. As long as the Seven Keys are being used, parents are setting an example of studying, and children are being taught using the Phases of Learning as a guide, it is TJEd.
For example, the Montessori method and Unschooling are wonderful for children in Core Phase. Charlotte Mason is a tremendous guide for children in the Love of Learning Phase. And a child is ready for Scholar Phase when she willingly submits to a demanding mentor and has a powerful sense of mission that drives her to immerse herself in the study of subjects of her own choosing for several hours each day. At this point, many other methods and curicula can be used to supplement a personalized education plan.
So if you're using another method and following TJEd principles, how can you be sure of "success" since these methods vary? -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeJan 17th 2009
Amy, for some reason I didn't see this question from last fall. So sorry.
This is a really good question. How can you be assured of success when, perhaps, the "method" being used is flawed?
Frankly, I think this is just a way for TJEd not to be SEEN as being in competition with other methods (that all have adamant and vocal followers)--at least by people who don't spend much time thinking through things. I mean, what IS a method anyway? It's a particular form of procedure for accomplishing or approaching something. How is (1) following the Seven Keys, (2) parents modeling studying, and (3) using the Phases of Learning NOT a method?
In addition to this problem, the author doesn't seem to know how/when those methods contradict TJEd. That would be valuable info before claiming that they work together. -
Alison, no worries. There were several discussions in a few places, so I ascribe it to topic fatigue. I know I was glad to be done thinking about it for a while.
Posted By: Alison Moore SmithFrankly, I think this is just a way for TJEd not to be SEEN as being in competition with other methods
Agreed.
I've been thinking for a while about posting on this thread again because I didn't want to sound too negative about TJEd. I have to admit that I got some useful ideas from reading TJEd materials that having worked well with my family. But that's just it, there are some good ideas. I went back and scanned the thread and I think this quote helps summarize what I was thinking.Posted By: Alison Moore SmithThere is no perfect method. That being the case, it's damaging to homeschoolers and homeschooling when they can't even see the problems or limitations they are working with. TJEd is particularly flawed BECAUSE of the grandiose and often erroneous claims of the founders.
One mother I know who is doing TJEd recently told me that her son was finally interested in learning to read. I don't know how old he is, but I think he's over 12. She seemed relieved. This type of thing is what bothers me most about this type of method. It puts undue stress on parents, especially for a method that has not stood the test of time and yet many put such trust that it will work anyway. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2009
Amy, I absolutely agree. Promote good ideas. Promote what worked for YOU with a PARTICULAR child. We can all learn from that. But to make claims of creating "statesmen" with an unproven method is fundamentally dishonest. GWC has been around for years. When you ask "where are the statesmen" the answer turns out to be that "statesman" can mean anything you want it to. So the claim of creating statesmen really means "you will probably end up with pretty mediocre results."
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