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Please join us to discuss Got Guilt? .
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Absolutely fabulous, Michelle (as always). Lots to think about, and more importantly, act upon.
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- CommentAuthorSilverRain
- CommentTimeNov 27th 2007 edited
This was incredibly timely. Perhaps the feelings you discuss in this article are mostly the cause of some of the heartache over Sister Beck's very direct words?
Probably for many, these feelings are the seeds of apostasy. It can be easier to reject what you perceive as the source of your guilt than to change a "natural" way of thinking.
Also - soon after getting married, my husband and I were going through the "trying to change each other" phase. I kept spiraling more and more deeply into depression, unable to take criticism - constructive or otherwise - in any healthy way. It wasn't until I realized (remembered?) that it doesn't matter what my husband thinks of me - that it doesn't even matter what I think of me, that it only matters what God thinks of me, and He is more than capable of telling me when and how to change - that I was able to shake off the guilt and repent of my depressive thoughts. Before that, I was caught trying to please my husband, the "Church", my work and God. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and [yourself/your husband/ward members/your boss]." The funny thing is once I stopped trying to please everyone and focused on God, I ended up pleasing everyone more in the long run. Well, except my boss, but he was a "special" case. -
SilverRain, part of what spurred this post was all that I heard of 'she made me feel guilty' after Sister Beck's talk. (I'd been thinking about it for months, but all those reactions caused me to want to actually write those thoughts down because they have had such an impact in my life.) This is simply not true. Staying stuck in worldly sorrow is a choice, not something someone or something outside of oneself causes. It's like anger. The feeling may be there, but it's our choice how to respond to it. It's hard to recognize this pattern at first, but after a while, it becomes easier.
And your last paragraph sums up what I'm only now really starting to learn and really practice. It changes everything, including how others respond to us. If we don't choose to react when a button is pushed, and instead stay grounded in God''s love for us, then we won't feed the collusion that often makes altercations escalate. That, and we don't stay in a mode of self-deception. The more rotten we choose to feel about ourselves, the more sensitive we are to what others say or do (the more 'buttons' we have that can be pushed), and unless we stop that cycle, it all just keeps feeding on itself.
Agency is such an amazing thing! -
- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeNov 27th 2007
Michelle, I think that's probably THE best article/blog I've ever read on the internet. Truly. Absolutely wonderful, and so needed for so many.
I can honestly say that I've never been one prone for overwhelming, paralyzing guilt. I HAVE felt horribly guilty for things I did, or didn't do and should have done. But the guilt just motivated me to "wake up", repent and change. And even though I've made "lists" of things I need to improve on and change in my life after a Sunday lesson or general conference, I've never felt the kind of despair and hopelessness that I know others often feel. I go home thinking-- okay Tracy, get on the ball, you've got work to do. I usually write it in my journal-- make a few goals, and get on with accomplishing them-- or at least attempting to. :)
On the other hand, I have a brother who self-destructs himself with guilt. Rather than allowing the gospel to help change him and improve himself, he just stopped going to church. The longer he stayed away, the worse he got, until he ended up really hurting people and tore his family apart.
Anyway-- an absolutely BEAUTIFUL article. I LOVE the explanation of what repentence is and isn't by Elder Burton. I'll be using that one alot!!! Also the explanation of the difference between and overly developed sense of guilt, as opposed to godly sorrow.
And I love the way you encompassed those ideas with your own experiences and thoughts.
Thank you for such a fantastic article.
I vote for Michelle giving this talk during the next General Conference as a "guest speaker"!
Maybe I'll make a call to Salt Lake... :)
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Tracy, yeah for you! I'm always happy to hear women say that they don't get caught in the guilt trap. I think it's all too common.
agardner, I'm grateful if anything I have learned and shared might be helpful to someone else. I wish I had learned this so long ago. I am deeply grateful to the Lord for helping me finally get this. This is good news indeed! -
- CommentAuthorSilverRain
- CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
Tracy - that sounds like a very masculine form of dealing with guilt. Are you sure you're not a man?
Michelle - you sound like you've read Arbinger! (Leadership and Self-deception.) My work trains us in that, so it's funny hearing people outside of work use the terms. -
- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
Tracy - that sounds like a very masculine form of dealing with guilt. Are you sure you're not a man?
Okay Silver, I confess.
Just don't tell my husband though, k? I've had him fooled for almost 19 years... why turn back now?
And if it ever got back to my OB, she'd probably turn in her liscense and never practice medicine again. The shame!! -
- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeNov 28th 2007 edited
Michelle, thanks for the little cheer :) -- but I was pondering this in bed last night- trying to figure out the difference between my brother and I. It's not like I "worked" at being a person motivated rather than stifled by guilt. At first, I thought- well, I have a strong testimony of the Savior and his willingness and power to forgive me, and then strengten me as I attempt to turn my weaknesses into strengths. And my brother doesn't really have much of a testimony of that at all. So I can see why that would make a HUGE difference. But then as I kept thinking about it, I realized that when I was little 8, 9,10 or so when I DIDN'T have a solid, firm, mature personal testimony of the Savior (more just believing what I was taught) I was STILL motivated, rather than depressed by guilt. If I didn't do well on a test, I'd be upset with myself "I should have studied more. I waited until the last minute. I'm not doing THAT anymore!" My brother was like "I did horrible. Why am I so stupid? Why do I even bother?"
I just wonder how much of it is a personality trait thing-- soemthing we're just born with. And optomist/pessimist kind of thing. Maybe birth order even has something to do with it. I'm a believer in the "birth order has an effect on our personalities" idea. Maybe that's kind of silly to interject into this discussion-- but I do see some parallels. As the first child, I was ALWAYS "the responsible one", " the mature one", " the one you can count on", " the steady one", the one with good grades, etc. I didn't HAVE to be motivated to do things (other than clean my room :)-- I motivated my myself. I wanted to impress, to do a good job, to be approved of, especially by adults. (When I think back, I must have driven my parents and their friends crazy-- my father frequently entertained "big whigs"-- so my mother was hosting parties, and I was always there, trying to "fit in" with the adults, trying to act mature, and like I was just a shorter version of one them.) I was the teachers pet in almost every class, and I was almost always made a leader--in YW classes, in school class presidencies, I was drum major for the band, etc, etc.
Now the important thing to note, is that it was adults who were impressed, not the kids. I wasn't "popular" in school, but I wasn't razzed either, wasn't made an outcast, etc-- but I was never in the "popular crowd" of kids. The ADULTS on the other hand, loved me. And that was more important to me, anyway. My thought was-- if the ADULTS approve, that's what matters, because heck-- what do kids know?
Sorry, I'm starting to ramble-- but I was thinking of all this in bed last night-- and how it relates to guilt being a motivator or a detractor-- the difference between my brother and I. He was the youngest, they baby, and he totally played the part. Therefore he HAD to motivated to do EVERYTHING!!!!! He wouldn't do his homework, wouldn't study, etc- so naturally he didn't do well in school. Not doing well in school would have driven me crazy-- yet he didn't care. Or so he wanted it to seem. But he DID care. He felt bad about himself when he got that report card. And instead of saying-- this is my fault, I did this do myself, and I can fix it, it was "I can't help it if I fail, I'm stupid."
Additionally, my friends were always upbeat, happy, enthusiastic people. (Not that they didn't have their issues, ups and downs, etc) but they were generally positive people, motivated-- they were in the band, on a sports team, in student council, active in church,etc. My brother TOTALLY gravitated toward those who were depressed and negative. All his friends were kids with lots of problems, failing in school, borderline church activity, they didn't do anything, and neither did he. No sports, no real interests, that kept them busy. They all just "hung out" and talked. They were always commiserating- always "talking" about their problems. He had this "Savior" mentality though- he was going to lift them up and help them. But all they did was bring him further down.He ended up getting into trouble with them. Then he'd just feel even WORSE about himself.
Anyway-- not meaning to blather. This is just all the stuff that I fell asleep thinking about last night, and I wonder how much of all that has to do with it, and how our personalities affect our testimony, and vice versa. I've always been fascinated by how sibilings can grow up in the same family and be SO incredibly different.
I don't know you personally-- you may be TOTALLY different than my brother-- so I'm not trying to compare YOU to him. That's just everything that was running through my mind as I was trying to analyze what the difference is between myself and my brother.
And maybe it's silly but I feet a little "guiltY"-- or maybe guilty isn't the word-- maybe the right word is "undeserving"? for being cheered just because I don't have the tendency to be weighed down by guilt. I'm thankful that guilt doesn't affect me negatively as I've seen how the opposite can be so harmful and self-destructive, but it's not like it's an achievement -- you know? Am I saying that right? -- Not sure how to put it. I guess it's sort of like someone saying "Yeah!! I'm so happy for you!! You have black hair!" :)
Of course-- I've never been one for taking compliments well, either. Isn't that wierd? I always wanted to impress with my good behavior, good grades, etc-- always wanted adult approval-- but then when I get it, I feel undeserving. Well, I guess that's an entirely different subject.
Hmmmm.... self analysis is always so difficult. -
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CommentAuthoreast-of-eden
- CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
Michelle....
Thank you so much, this essay was really an answer to a many prayers as of late. I really, really appreciate it! I want to hug you now!
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Silver - I love what you said! I never thought of our efforts to please everyone around us as "serving two masters." But it is!
Wow, that's a liberating thought. -
Tracy, I'm gonna blow your theory out of the water because I'm an oldest. :) I think there is a lot that goes into it, but I do believe that some people might have a gift, the blessing, of not getting into these traps.
east-of-eden, you know Whom to thank. I'm just sharing what HE has helped me understand. Hugs back to you, though!
Silver, yes, I have read Arbinger and other books as well that have helped me finally get it (Boundaries, Crucial Conversations and this series by James Cox). And the Book of Mormon, of course. :) -
- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
Tracy, I'm gonna blow your theory out of the water because I'm an oldest. :)
Yeah-- I guess it doesn't jibe then, eh? Back to the drawing board...
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I really think some people just have this understanding as a gift (I have a sibling or two who do) and others of us have to work and struggle to 'get it.' I wrote this post especially for those of us in the second category. And in my weak moments, I try not to envy people like you who haven't felt the torture of worldly sorrow wrongly and even sometimes ignorantly chosen. We all have our struggles, right? :)
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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
What a wonderful, and much needed article!
I find the truth about godly sorrow to be very interesting (Kimball wrote a lot about it, too, as you can imagine--and I think Packer and McConkie, if I'm remembering sources accurately) and, frankly, misunderstood. Our culture, of course, thinks guilt should largely be abolished as it keeps us from doing whatever we want. But even in the church we often seem not to get it.
Thanks so much for this great post, Michelle! -
Our culture, of course, thinks guilt should largely be abolished as it keeps us from doing whatever we want.
And that, of course, is the risk of thinking guilt is no big deal at all. It is. It is often given by God to help us change. And too many people ignore that, and then lose the ability to recognize when the light of Christ is nudging them to be better.
I remember reading an article about a famous actress. She was talking about photo shoots, and how sometimes a photographer would ask her to do something that made her feel uncomfortable. And I thought YEAH! The Light of Christ is at work! BUT then she talked herself out of those feelings with some feminist mumbo jumbo about how she shouldn't be ashamed of her body and all of that.
A similar situation came up in another article about a woman feeling guilty for leaving her daughter to work (when she didn't need to). But then the philosophies of the world entered in and pushed that guilt out...that she was doing her daughter more of a favor by working so her daughter could know that she could do anything she wanted, etc.
The difference between us and them is that we have more understanding of the plan of salvation and how the Spirit works. But still, sometimes we will either ignore the promptings of the Spirit because we don't want to change, or we will allow ourselves to be paralyzed by guilt that is more self-imposed. But some of what I have appreciated realizing is that it doesn't matter, really, what the source of guilt is, because either way, I need to repent and turn back to God so I can understand what I really need to do to become more like Him.
As for godly sorrow, I want to go back and read now the words of leaders you have mentioned, because I have heard those words all my life, but it wasn't until how it was explained to me by Brother Cox that I finally got it. I considered that simply a tender mercy, via my visiting teacher who shared the series with me. -
- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeNov 28th 2007
I wrote this post especially for those of us in the second category.
Well, you did a wonderful job. So beautifully expressed, so doctrinally sound. The awesome thing too, is that even those who don't fall into the second category are lifted, inspired, and are educated in good, solid and BEAUTIFUL doctrine. You read an article like that and want to shout praise for the gospel and how marvelous it truly is! -
You read an article like that and want to shout praise for the gospel and how marvelous it truly is!
I'm thrilled if you can feel that, because this article was a way for me to shout that praise! -
Dear sweet Michelle, I was flattened by flu, and then I tried two different times to comment, and both times the comments were erased.
Want to tell you about the experience I had today. My little town is a pioneer community started in 1889. Until recently, most of the people who live in this area grew up here and were raised in the gospel. Suddenly we're having a great influx of people moving in. This area used to be farmland, and now it is covered by one subdivision after another. We have four new housing additions going up in our ward. The people are coming from California and Utah and Wyoming, all states fairly close to us. Today I had an eye opener. A woman came to visit me who is German, but she grew up in Puerto Rico and speaks that language fluently. She raised her children in Rochester, New York. She joined the Church in 2003, and before that, she was a Jehovah's Witness. Talk about culturally diverse! a German Puerto Rican former Jehovah's Witness with a Queens flair to her speech and a current testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel! In my living room! What a delight! What an eye opener for me.
She came to get help with family history work, but she was so warm and open. We sat and chatted for awhile. And suddenly she was telling me that since she joined the Church, she just can't get over feeling guilty because there was so much good she wanted to do, and she never felt adequate, even though she had repented of former sins. All she could see was what she hadn't done, or what she'd done wrong. Armed with your wonderful essay, I talked to her about guilt and godly sorrow. The ideas were new to her, and she soaked them up like a sponge!
I helped her put her family history into Personal Ancestral File, and we went to the Family History Center to run it through TempleReady. The workers there showed her how to search different computer databases to hunt for her ancestors in Germany and Puerto Rico, and she found them almost instantly! (I've been looking for some of mine for almost ten years.) We took her disk to the temple and she had the ordinance cards printed out. She was going back later today to do the baptisms.
What a wonderful, significant day this was for her! She found her family, started their ordinance work, and learned the truth about the difference between guilt and godly sorrow. It rang very true to her. Michelle, thank you. I thought you might want to know how your words, through the Spirit of God, ripple out to help and bless many different people.
And you are so right! Praise be to God for his unspeakable gifts! And thank you for sharing your beautiful heart with us. -
davidson, I'm sorry you were sick. Flu. Yuck.
Thank you so much for sharing that sweet story. I am so very grateful to feel that something that has been a blessing to me has been a blessing to someone else. And it really is all about the Lord and His goodness. I'm grateful for a medium that allows us to, in a small way, be instruments in His hands to help one another. It's a sweet blessing.
I really do feel that what I shared was a tender mercy, and it's touching to see how that tender mercy can ripple. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeNov 29th 2007
Did anyone Sustain this? I have trouble doing it because I own the site, but I can vote once it's in. Just go to the article and click the button at the bottom.
(You can do that with any article you like! Helps the whole site!) -
THis hardly needs one more vote. But I too loved the article, I feel like printing it off and using it the next time I'm asked to speak in sacrement. It really was terrrific!
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Daisy, if that is truly what the Spirit prompts you to do, then go right ahead! :)
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Thank you, Michelle, for a beautiful article. It fits exactly into some of the things I've been dealing with lately. And really, now my issues come down to: I know why I'm feeling bad and guilty all the time. Now I need to learn how to break the cycle of negative thinking and worldly sorrow that is overtaking the good in me. Your article is a perfect, Christ-centered help for that. It's something powerful to add to my little arsenal.
Posted By: facethemusicI was ALWAYS "the responsible one", " the mature one", " the one you can count on", " the steady one", the one with good grades, etc. I didn't HAVE to be motivated to do things (other than clean my room :)-- I motivated my myself. I wanted to impress, to do a good job, to be approved of, especially by adults. . . . I was the teachers pet in almost every class, and I was almost always made a leader--in YW classes, in school class presidencies . . . .
Now the important thing to note, is that it was adults who were impressed, not the kids. I wasn't "popular" in school, but I wasn't razzed either, wasn't made an outcast, etc-- but I was never in the "popular crowd" of kids. The ADULTS on the other hand, loved me. And that was more important to me, anyway. My thought was-- if the ADULTS approve, that's what matters, because heck-- what do kids know?
This sounds just like me when I was younger. And then one day I got married. I grew up. And I became an adult, and no longer was there anyone to please. No one was handing out report cards or awards or scholarships, and no one's praise mattered to me anymore. Instead of turning to God and deciding I would please Him, I think I've just lost my motivation. Oh, I still go to church and hold callings, I pray and faithfully serve, and yes, my testimony is still there because I know what's right and I really do care about what God thinks of me. But I can't get past the need for a pat on the back, the chance to earn my "straight As" in following Christ. Anyone have any concrete ideas to overcome this prideful desire for achievement? -
But I can't get past the need for a pat on the back, the chance to earn my "straight As" in following Christ. Anyone have any concrete ideas to overcome this prideful desire for achievement?
This is exactly what my crusade is about. For me, it's about a conscious change of focus. I don't clean my house to look good; I clean it because of the spiritual element of that work (teaching my children, having a place where we can feel the Spirit better and are less distracted by stuff; having a home that people can come into and feel welcome (because there is a place to sit down, for example!) :) ) When I catch myself looking for kudos from hubby, I try to stop myself from seeking that. When my kids say they have learned everything from their teachers, I try to detach my worth from what they are saying and know that I am striving to teach them all I can. For me, it's about recognizing when I'm looking for any sort of worldly reinforcement, and trying to get my mind and heart into a spiritual plane. Or, on the flip side, realizing when I care about what others think ("Did I say the right thing?" "OH, what if she thought that I wasn't dressed correctly?" "My children's hari was a mess today at that ward party. I hope no one thinks I'm a slob." "We are late again. The bishop probably thinks....") See where I'm going? -
The other thing for me is to really recognize God's hand in my life...to be grateful for all I have and am. Even my straight As were a gift because He blessed me with help and a (at least then :) ) clear mind. :) The more grateful we are, the more we can recognize that whatever achievements we have had really are about God's goodness to us, and we might be less apt to seek validation of our worth from those things that are gifts anyway.
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Oh, very good points, Michelle, thank you. I can see how caring about achievement is so intertwined with caring about what people think of you. I constantly struggle with what people are thinking of me, and it is so frustrating to care so much and know that it isn't important. I hope that the more I focus on this, the better I can overcome it.
I also appreciate you pointing out that whatever we do, it is because God allows and helps us to--it is not a credit to us, but Him. I've heard this before, but it never really "clicked" in my mind in relation to caring about what people think of me. -
Enjoyed your thoughts, Michelle and Rachel. I keep trying to gain a testimony of Scouting. I probably see it wrong. It seems to me that there is too much emphasis placed on rewards for external achievement. A young boy develops a taste for it, a craving for it, and then he has something to unlearn as he matures in the gospel. I heard one young boy say a few weeks ago that it wasn't worth earning an award if it was going to be given to him in private! I also struggle when some of that "achievement" was not even actually achieved by the boys, but maybe by their mothers! And we seem to wink at and reward such dishonesty.
OTOH!
Girls are recognized and awarded their Young Womanhood Medallions in Sacrament meeting, by direction of the First Presidency.
The First Presidency members publicly received the highest awards for Scouting.
Our Father introduced His Son by saying, "Behold my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Something in me thinks He was pleased with His Son's character, but he was also very pleased with his worthy achievement. Worthy achievement will be rewarded on the final judgment Day; the scriptures are clear about that.
Still haven't decided what I think about seeking worthy achievement. Maybe it only depends on where our hearts are at, whether we are seeking worthy achievement in the name of self-improvement, or seeking worthy achievement merely to be seen of men. I don't think it's so cut and dried. Being the natural men and women we are, but with divine characteristics, we probably seek both things simultaneously.
The approval of God has come to mean far more to me than the approval of men--but I also think I seek the approval of others, and it would be a rare person who could say he didn't. -
davidson, I have also struggled with the outward achievement elements of those programs, but I think that a lot depends on how we teach them and guide them in these programs. Children and teens are still developing their self- and internal-motivation mechanisms, methinks, and so the outward reinforces the inward. But I think we need to be explicit about this. "Now, dear son/daughter, remember that we aren't doing this so you can get the awards, although those are fun. We are doing this because the Lord wants you to do these programs so you can become more like the Savior and be better prepared to be a responsible adult, to be able to serve the Lord, your family, the church, and your community."
True doctrine changes behavior. We need to teach true doctrine even as the programs have some behavior focus.
It's like the ancient people who understood the purpose of the law of Moses -- the 'carnal commandments' and outward motions were to point them to Christ. I believe we can teach these same types of principles to our children as they participate in the outward aspects of the programs. I believe THIS is why the programs exist, but we as adults have to catch that vision in order for our children to catch the vision!
Personally, any external achievement is too much of a temptation for me. I'd rather not have any at all. It's just too easy to rely on that for my sense of worth and value, and to be too focused on 'my' accomplishments and not enough on God's grace in my life, which allows me to do all that I do anyway. Humility is about recognizing that all we have and are comes from God, so the achievement and glory should be His.
Easy to say, hard to really act and internalize and have my heart really be there. Just like anything else, it's a process. -
- CommentAuthorSilverRain
- CommentTimeNov 30th 2007
Whether you are looking down at those below you, up at those above you, or squinting out of the corner of your eye to judge those alongside you, it is pride.
Not an easy thing to learn.
And sort of an odd thought - even seeking God's approval can be unhealthy to a point. The purpose of life is to become like God so we can share in His glory and joy - not to get straight A's on our eternal report card. -
Good point, SilverRain. The purpose of seeking God's approval is only so far "The effects of true faith in Jesus Christ include an actual knowledge that the course of life one is pursuing is acceptable to the Lord (see Heb. 11: 4)." If we feel the Lord's approval of our efforts and direction, we will be less concerned about mortal measures of where we are. And we will be less threatened by His or others counsel or correction, or from criticism from others.
In the end, life is not a competition. This all reminds me of a talk by Elder Holland. Too much to just quote a bit. :) -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
Posted By: davidsonI keep trying to gain a testimony of Scouting.
Can I say the "h" word in here? Cause when that freezes over is when I'll have a testimony of scouting!
What I struggle with (as you all know if you've been around here long enough), is the disparity in the programs. I think external rewards are fine sometimes. (We get paid to work, right?) But the boys get about a billion more externals than the girls. -
- CommentAuthorSilverRain
- CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
And, I would have to say that their external rewards are generally for things like setting fires, shooting accurately at targets and organizing other people to do their work for them, rather than the things like housecleaning, cooking and mending one's own clothes.
To me, being a good husband and father has more to do with the latter, even though the former has its merits. I'll even go for a compromise. Give them merit badges on motivating oneself to mow the lawn, fixing cars and household repairs. THAT is a scouting program I could live with. -
Or, we could move to Italy. Hewlett Packard sent my brother to Italy for two years for the company. He took his family with him, and they all learned Italian. My brother was in a stake presidency, and since they don't use the Scouting program for the YM program in Italy, he had the opportunity to help design a program for boys in his stake based on the gospel. I hope it comes to that eventually in the Church. Maybe the Scouting program will destroy itself, and the Church will have to part ways with it. I wouldn't be sad.
Alison, I also think the wages program is all wrong, too! Our prophet says MOST employment is honorable, if approached with a clean heart, and I don't think that reward system is accurate, either. My husband works his tookus off! He's a very hard worker, and he just isn't paid enough, in my opinion. His work is difficult and technical and he had to have a lot of training to learn it, but it isn't as valued as some other professions.
Having said that, I think there must be SOME REASON why the highest authorities in our Church approve of and use the Scouting program. Maybe boys that age really need the external reward system for a while, until they learn to value something else more. Whether I like Scouting or not, I will support them in the use of it until they tell us to do otherwise. My boys earn their merit badges, but they don't wear them. There are no badges of any sort on the Savior's simple white robe. They know how I feel about it. I tell them to wear their merit badges on their hearts. I tell them privately how pleased I am with them when they choose worthy accomplishment, but I tell them that we don't do it to be seen of men. I tell them I will help them with the details of Scouting that aren't theirs (driving them to the Scout office, to mutual, to pow wows, etc.), and I will encourage the work, but I won't force them to do it, and neither will I do it for them, lie about it, and allow them to receive the awards for it. I tell them they should not compete against others, but against their own best selves. I tell them, "Quit looking around! Do it for you! Do it for your future family!"
HA, Silver! "Organizing other people to do their work for them!" HA!
Incidentally, I'm a merit badge counselor for the Family Life merit badge. And because of Scouting, we rarely have to call a repair man to repair our car or things in our house. I'm grateful my husband learned those things in Scouting.
I will keep looking for good in it until I don't need to anymore. -
- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
Anyone have any concrete ideas to overcome this prideful desire for achievement?
I think as Davidson pointed out, it isn't necessarily "prideful" to want to achieve. And in the realm of spiritual things, we should WANT to please our Heavenly Father.
The difference is, are we wanting HIS approval or the approval of the world (or the ward :).
Are we trying to magnify our callings to further God's work, to build the kingdom, to earn his approval and a "well done thou good and faithful servant" from Him, OR are we performing in our callings in such a way that what we're really doing is seeking the approval and recognition of other members.
I'm thinking of a particular man who sings SO loudly that it's completely obnoxious.
He has a LOVELY voice-- it really is fantastic. But oh goodness-- he sings so loudly that he's practically shouting. And he purposely holds his notes out longer than everyone else at the end of a phrase so that everyone can hear him. The conductor directs the cut off- and everyone finishes-- except for him. He holds out that last note one extra beat longer than the entire congregation. He's clearly singing at the absolute loudest decible he could possibly reach, and he KNOWS he's singing 10 times as loudly as anyone around him.
This is a man who is musically trained. He KNOWS that you're supposed to "blend". He knows what "cut offs" are. He knows how to follow a director, and he DOES watch her. But he purposely sings past cut offs, and purposely dominates the room when it comes to singing. He wants to be heard above everyone. He's good. He KNOWS he's good and he wants everyone else to know he's good.
Now, I'm all for "shouting our praises to the Lord", but I don't think that's exactly what He meant.
My voice is one that projects well. When I first started singing with choirs, I was always the one that the director had to tell to "back off". After awhile, I learned how to blend, making a conscious effort to LISTEN for the OTHER parts and make sure that my voice was BLENDING with the others.
To THIS DAY, I'm still very conscious about it. When I sing with a small group, I always make sure that I'm the farthest one from the microphone and put the quietest right in front of it.
Just last night a small group sang at the adult session of Stake Conference, and afterwards, I had a few people come up to me and tell me how lovely I sang-- "you have such a beautiful voice"-- which I KNOW they mean as a compliment, but I AUTOMATICALLY think, "but you're not supposed to hear *me*-- I must have been singing too loudly".
If a person's voice is sticking out-- then often THAT's what get's paid attention to-- instead of the words, meaning and spririt of the song. --Like the gentlemen I spoke of earlier who "shout sings" -- everyone in the room is always looking around trying to find "that guy who's singing so loud". You always see all these heads looking around, turning back over their shoulder, etc, trying to find "that voice". And you don't want that-- you want people being touched by the spirit of music and words, not focusing in (or being distracted) by one voice.
So I made a beeline for the person in the congregation, who I know is a master musician and choir director, who I also know is HONEST and not a false-praise-giver, so I could ask -- "Okay, I just had 3 people tell me what a beautiful voice I have-- please tell me I wasn't sticking out!" -- if I was, he would have told me. But when I got to where he'd been sitting, he was gone, and I couldn't find him.
--Jenn???
I think the difference in what your actually looking for. Are you looking for worldy praise or heavenly praise? Are you hoping to be seen of men, or are you doing _____to contribute to God's kingdom, to improve yourself? Are you doing ______ to bring glory to yourself, or to bring glory to God?
it's the difference between these scriptures:
Matt. 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matt 23
5. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi...
12. ... And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
We actually had this discussion with the kids a couple years ago when we were doing our 12 days of Christmas thing, where we anonymously place gifts on someone's doorstep, ring the doorbell and run! Up to that point, we'd always revealed who we were on the 12th day.
But then we thought we'd do it withOUT revealing who was bringing the gifts.
I don't think it's trying "to be seen of men" in the selfish, prideful way that the scripture means, when you reveal yourself as a "secret santa", "secret sister", etc. That's just fun! For them AND for you. As the person receiving the gifts, you WANT to know who it is. Trying to guess or catch them is part of the fun.
But to make the point and since it was a great way to introduce the idea, we did it withOUT revealing who we were at the end. It was hard for the kids-- they really wanted to knock on the door and handover that last gift as we started to sing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas", as is our usual custom. But I think it was a good experience for them to "give" without being known.
So how do you overcome a "prideful desire for achievements"?
I think it's mostly a matter of giving praise to God for our achievements. Recognizing His hand in it all. Acheivements ARE going to be recognized by man-- and sometimes they SHOULD be.
I WANT to know that my doctor really IS a doctor-- I'm glad it hangs on his wall. :)
But he should be thankful to God for gift, for his ability to learn, to retain what he's learned, to be able to serve people and really help them,etc.
I think when achieving things becomes a "status" thing, an "I'm better than" thing, that's when it's a problem. -
Alison, did you really just turn this thread into a scouting tangent? I know where you live! Cease and desist or I'm coming to your house and, and, and...hm....rather than toilet paper, I'll litter your house with scout medals. I'll iron them on your front door! bwahahaha...!!!
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- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
I just realized we've gotten rather off track of the original conversation--- sorry about that Michelle! -
- CommentAuthorjennycherie
- CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007
Posted By: facethemusicJust last night a small group sang at the adult session of Stake Conference, and afterwards, I had a few people come up to me and tell me how lovely I sang-- "you have such a beautiful voice"-- which I KNOW they mean as a compliment, but I AUTOMATICALLY think, "but you're not supposed to hear *me*-- I must have been singing too loudly".
okay, I'm feeling cruddy today and just decided to take a little break from the couch because my daughter is standing by it wailing and it is making my head throb even harder so I saw this.
Tracy, the song last night was great. I was going to stick around and talk to you (because I assumed it was your arrangement also?) but I was already feeling gross. I seriously could *not* pick out ANY voices in the group last night. It was very well done. Believe me--I know your voice and I know Lisa's. You both have nice voices that can carry when necessary but I could not pick out either one of you. I wasn't entirely sure if you were singing soprano or if you were singing alto last night. It really was beautifully done, and as I heard in the hallway, if you send a general authority off on a 15 minute tangent about hymns, that has to be good!
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