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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 14th 2007
Please join us to discuss I'm Dating a Porn Addict. -
- CommentAuthorSilverRain
- CommentTimeMay 14th 2007 edited
Hmm - I can't add much that hasn't already been said. I used to have this romantic idea of marrying a guy who was "experienced," but I came to realize it is not romantic in the least. There is nothing more sexually romantic than a guy who is honest with himself and with you, who comes to a marriage completely clean and wanting to discover sex with you. There is nothing romantic in experience. There is nothing romantic in "knowing how to please" himself or you. There is nothing romantic about sexual baggage, whether it is physical or mental.
Pornography supercedes unrealistic expectations on a man's (or on a woman's) mind and sexual responses. Although (s)he may repent, the web strands of visual or mental sexual sin are nearly impossible to clean away in this life. If you decide to marry, the rest of your life will be colored by his addiction. You will become intimately acquainted with a heartache that cannot be fully explained or understood until you are in it. Please, don't enter this pool with your eyes open. It's bad enough if you don't know what you're getting into.
Of course, Christ can cleanse even these sins from a man's mind and heart. That cleansing is not easy, and the recipient must be completely devoted to change before it can happen. Such devotion is nearly nonexistent. In addition, the process completely removes the desire to partake in that sin again. I agree with others in saying that it doesn't sound like your date has gone through that refining fire.
Not yet, anyways. Perhaps not ever. Don't gamble your eternity on his desire for repentance. -
My heart goes out to LJ.
There was a time when I dated the "bad boys". It's really easy to think that they are just being misunderstood. They might have done this or that to others but I'm the one they really loved. (despite being treated badly). I finally had to make a decision to look for a different type. Someone who might not be as exciting but who could be relied upon. In the end I knew, that life might not have those big highs but it wouldn't plummet to the same depths either.
Lj, that's a decision that you need to make too. This man has a problem. Some day if he is sincere in fighting it, then God will place someone there for him. But that isn't today. Not if he's slipping. Remember, he's placed you on that same slippery slope. You've accepted him in spite of this sin. He will continue to push the envelope until you slide down into that pit with him. Then he'll leave. -
One more thing. You say he deserves happiness. But look at it this way. People don't change easily. So if you are so sure that being with him is the right thing. Start planning now. What are you going to say to your son or daughter the first time they find the pictures Daddy has downloaded? How are you going to explain to your children to keep themselves pure although Daddy doesn't practice what he preaches? Do yourself a favor - imagine the future should he be unable to change himself. What kind of future will your children have?
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I think this site has some of the smartest readers of any I've visited. Maybe the wisest is a better way to say that. I learn a lot from reading everthing.
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Oh, I was going to ask LJ something. Don't YOU deserve happiness too? Do you think you'll be happy with a guy who gets sexual fullfillment from other women?
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I have said in other threads that we have serveral people in our circle of friends who have experienced problems with porn in their marriages. We have seen the suffering and destruction of marriages (some are divorced over this, led out of the marriage by God). Those who have stayed married have walked a painful, difficult road. Watching what they have gone through, I would be VERY, VERY hesitant to recommend that anyone knowingly choose such a life. Not that you couldn't marry someone who had that problem in the past AND TRULY OVERCAME IT (for years, not a couple of months). In my mind, it would be one thing if he had had a problem 10 years ago and had had a couple of slip-ups during that decade that were minor. It's concerning to me, though, that with a 10-year problem, he's only been "sober" for three months, with slip-ups at that. Not a good track record to go on. Not yet. Tell him you'll check in with him in a couple of years if you are still around.
While I believe this is a problem that can be overcome, I am particularly concerned about the fact that he claims that he has only been "sober" for almost the same time you have known each other. This suggests that he is trying hard, and perhaps trying hard for you. But remember that courtship is not reality; life is life and it's challenging and after the honeymoon, it sets in (and sometimes fast). The stresses of life can cause addictions to rear their ugly heads. I don't think you can base your decision on what he has done during your courtship. I personally would not feel enough confidence in a man who is suddenly shaping up now that I'm in his life. He might very well be sincere, and I believe he does deserve a wonderful life, but something this pervasive and powerful needs more than a couple of months of soberness. YOU deserve the best you can get. I don't think you can appreciate how potentially this could define your life if you choose to marry someone who is not completely free of this problem.
None of my aforementioned friends to my knowledge had the luxury (or burden, depending on how you look at it) of knowing before marriage about their husbands' problems. I am not sure if they would have done something different had they known. I can't imagine choosing such a life unless the Spirit made it so absolutely clear that it was the right thing to do.
One of the key things to remember is that pornography distorts a man's view of healthy sexuality and often of women. This in and of itself is a serious problem to consider and decide if you want to choose for your life. Three months trying to quit porn is not long enough, in my opinion, for him to have cleared his heart, sould and mind of the poisonous perspective that comes with porn problems. He could even not be looking at anything but still not have a healthy understanding of what sexuality is supposed to be.
So, in short, I really dont know that I would recommend choosing a life where that is looming over your head. If you are still thinking you may want to stick with it, I would pray your heart out, talk to your bishop and parents for counsel and help with discernment, and really seek the Spirit to let you know if this is even worth continuing at all. My gut reaction is to walk away and let him get things figured out first, to make sure that the repentance is genuine, consistent, and long enough to be trustworthy (I'm talking a matter of a year or two of truly free behavior).
Best to you. -
I also think it's important to realize that porn addiction seldom, if ever, stays at the same level it starts at. I don't want to be too graphic, but what I mean by that is I HIGHLY doubt that he's still looking at the type of porn now that he was looking at 10 years ago. In fact, it sends chills down my spine to imagine the depravity he has sunk to in order to feel the same, uhm, stimulation that originally snared him in this net called pornography.
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Diana -- Probably seldom, not never. One of the aforementioned friends we know really did keep issues at a level that didn't sink into unthinkable depravity. Not all porn problems are created equal. NOT trying to minimize them at any level (after all, Elder Oaks said that even "soft porn" is porn and it's a problem), but just to say that there is no way to really know how severe the problem is in each situation. The severity would impact the level of addiction and the corresponding time and effort and help that would be required to overcome the addiction.
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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2007
Diana did say "seldom." She didn't say "never." -
Yeah, I know, Alison. She said, "seldom if ever" and so I was sharing something to eliminate the "if ever" option. ;) (Am I annoying people with my comments?)
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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2007
LOL no. I gotcha. I thought you had misread her. Instead, I misread you. Sorry. -
I didn't mean to make such a broad generalization. I'm sorry. I just truly believe Satan starts with the little things until the little things gradually grow into great big things, like in the ole Camel in the Tent allegory.
"...yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever. " -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2007
No need to apologize. You are right on. He's gets us where ever he can and once we justify moving our standard on inch, is easier to justify moving it an inch more. We'd rarely ever leap a foot at a time, but each little fraction of an inch seems meaningless. -
For the record, I don't disagree at all about that general concept. At all. It's scary to get even one inch into the devil's territory, with ANY problem. And frankly, I think most of the time you are right about the specifics as well -- porn is often (if not almost always) a downward spiral kind of problem that often leads to terrible consequences. I just think that it's good to hold that chance in our minds that not all people who have porn struggles are in the worst mode possible, ya know? And to remember that the people struggling are people who need love and support, too...I can't imagine being caught in such a snare. And my heart aches for anyone affected directly or indirectly.
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The fact that the man has been honest about this problem to you shows that he is not trying to keep it a secret from you and he may be suffering from guilt feelings and shame and those can cause a heavy burden. I would say that he loves you or he would not trust you with this information.
My husband is 5 1/2 years sober from alcoholism and I know from experience that love and support (not enabling) and prayer can lead him from this destructive sin. Don't judge him - we all have sin, no matter what it might be - but if he is in denial and refuses to go for help, I would question whether he is truly repentant and willing to submit to changing. Satan wants us to be weighed down by guilt and be ashamed to come to the Savior for forgiveness. Encourage your fiance towards recovery because there is hope.
There is help for the problem he has. Look on the internet or in the paper for a support group in your area called Celebrate Recovery. It is a Christ-centered support group for people with hurts, habits and hang-ups, and it is for anything from substance abuse to emotional pain - anything that may be keeping you from a fulfilling relationship with the Savior. There is forgiveness through sincere repentance and the atonement of Jesus. People don't change, but the Lord changes people. If you really love him and believe he wants freedom from this habit that truly has him in bondage, pray for him and support him through repenting and recovery.
Celebrate Recovery is Eight Recovery Principles based on the BEATITUDES that Jesus taught:
R= Principle 1 -
Realize I'm not God; I admit that I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and my life is unmanageable.
"Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor"
E= Principle 2 -
Earnestly believe that God exists, that I matter to him, and that he has the power to help me recover.
"Happy are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted"
C= Principle 3 -
Consciously choose to commit all my life and will to Christ's care and control.
"Happy are the meek"
O= Principle 4 -
Openly examine and confess my faults to God, to myself, and to someone I trust.
"Happy are the pure in heart"
V= Principle 5 -
Voluntarily submit to every change God wants to make in my life and humbly ask Him to remove my character defects.
"Happy are those whose greatest desire is to do what God requires"
E= Principle 6 -
Evaluate all my relationships; Offer forgiveness to those who have hurt me and make amends for harm I've done to others except when to do so would harm them or others.
"Happy are the merciful" "Happy are the peacemakers"
R= Principle 7 -
Reserve a daily time with God for self examination, Bible readings and prayer in order to know God and His will for my life and to gain the power to follow His will.
Y= Principle 8 -
Yield myself to God to be used to bring this Good News to others, both by my example and by my words.
"Happy are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires"
I will keep you both in prayer so that your lives will be happy together. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 19th 2007
Welcome, Grace. Thank you for the really wonderful information. -
- CommentAuthorAnonymousGuy
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007 edited
Tracy,
I am a male who is currently struggling with this problem of pornography addiction. After reading your response, I felt I had to respond. Maybe this might fall on deaf ears, but I feel that you have very little real knowledge about this addiction (besides what you've heard in general conference or read in the Ensign), and I am glad you will not stand in Jesus Christ's place at my judgment, though you seem quite anxious to do that now for LJ's boyfriend.
You and the people like you are part of the reason that addictions like these are so hard to overcome. If someone like me or LJ's boyfriend were to ask you for help on an issue such as this, you wouldn't know where to start - I bet you think you do - but in practice, I guarantee you that you have absolutely nothing to offer but condemnation and judgment.
Where do you get off accusing LJ of breaking the law of chastity with her boyfriend? Those accusations are unwarranted and insidiously offensive.
I can easily picture you among those wanting to stone the woman accused of adultery. You would have been among those who tried to hold Jesus back from healing the unclean leper. I am far from perfect, but I have learned to recognize the Spirit - and it is completely absent from your response.
Please take an honest look inside your heart, because you will be judged with the same judgment that you make.
Sincerely,
An Anonymous Guy -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007
Welcome, AnonymousGuy. Your input is appreciated and welcome, my response notwithstanding.Posted By: AnonymousGuy
I am glad you will not stand in Jesus Christ's place at my judgment, though you seem quite anxious to do that now for LJ's boyfriend.
We have to start with some intellectual honesty. Tracy is not trying to make final judgment on LJ's boyfriend anymore than you are trying to make final judgment on Tracy. We DO judge, we're supposed to. Point to someone who didn't make an judgments before deciding whom to marry and you'll be pointing at an idiot. Tracy is just as welcome to make judgments here as you are.You and the people like you are the reason that addictions like these are so hard to overcome.
Again, let's be honest. Addictions are not hard to overcome because people speak out about addictions. That is an irresponsible position to take--which may be one reason that your addiction is "so hard to overcome."
I guarantee you that you have absolutely nothing to offer but condemnation and judgment.
This may be true. Speaking for myself, I certainly do not claim expertise at helping anyone to stop viewing porn. My thought is, well, to stop looking at porn. Get rid of the means to view porn and refuse to be in situations where there could be porn. Likely too simplistic a view for you and many others.
Still, this column was not written as a self-help tool to assist porn-viewers in their quest to be porn-free. It was addressing a question from a woman who couldn't understand the outside pressure for her to break up withe the addict and to settle down with a guy who wasn't into porn.
Honestly, AG, I'm not convinced that porn-viewing is an "addiction" and, if it is, I think we've expanded the term to include almost anything that we shouldn't do, but find hard to give up. But, for the sake of argument, let's say you ARE addicted to porn. For heaven's sake, why would you support the idea of anyone marrying someone who had any unhealthy, sinful ADDICTION? Is that the kind of guy you'd choose for your daughter?
"Sure, honey, he gets off on other women every day, but he's a great guy for the most part. That's probably the best you can do anyway. And he deserves a faithful, virginal wife, who won't condemn him. Who better than you?"You would have been among those who tried to hold Jesus back from healing the unclean leper.
You are following the same faulty thought process that LJ had. Marrying someone is not the method to heal them. Porn addicts are children of God, but they aren't the best marriage choice for faithful, LDS women who want temple marriages, priesthood leadership, and fidelity. -
- CommentAuthorAnonymousGuy
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007 edited
LJ,
I believe you are very Christ-like in trying to be understanding of your boyfriend. My advice would be to forget about everything that old bag Tracy said, and to talk to the Lord and your Bishop about this (and not because I believe you need to confess your supposed immorality). People like Tracy can't understand why you would even consider continuing to date your boyfriend, and so they insult your intelligence. I have learned in life that such people usually have very little of real substance to offer you. The reason Tracy and other's can't understand you is because they have never been in your place, or else have never experienced the same feelings that you feel. (Maybe Tracy had some kindness in her once, but lost it during menopause, I don't know). I would suggest to you that there is a divine aspect to your tendency to want to extend mercy and help to your boyfriend in this case.
That said, I think you should be very cautious, and make no definite commitments or promises of something beyond dating, and recognize that an addiction like pornography takes time to conquer. Just how much time, I have absolutely no idea, as I'm still not through it. I do know one thing, however, that messages and ideas like Tracy's do very little to shorten that time period.
You have to understand the magnitude of what you are getting yourself into. It is completely within your power to end the relationship at this point, and I know it will hurt your boyfriend, but you should seriously consider that option. The longer you stay with this guy, the harder it will be to end it down the road.
If you feel that staying with him is what the Lord wants you to do - make sure you do so after significant fasting and prayer, and counseling with your bishop - because you want a decision such as that to not be tainted in any way by emotion. Make sure it is the right thing - not just what you might want emotionally.
I agree with what many have said at this point, that your boyfriend does not deserve to be happy. Don't stay with him out of obligation, or because you would feel guilty about leaving him.
I guess what I'm saying is you need to figure out the right decision for yourself - and to do that with the Lord's help, through the power of the Holy Ghost - not to have the "obvious" solution crammed down your throat by a bunch of judgmental, self-righteous Mormon pharisees.
Oh, and one last thing, if you do decide that you guys have a future together - do not settle for anything less than a Temple Marriage - and inform your boyfriend of this standard. This will require your friend to truly repent and overcome this, at least I believe that his bishop and stake president will have the wisdom given to them to be able to know and understand when he is fully cleansed - and only then will they approve you guys to be sealed. Pray for them to have discernment and wisdom. If your boyfriend is not able to meet the worthiness requirement for a Temple Marriage after a long time, you will know that he is not right - don't ever settle for anything less than the Temple.
Anyway, I hope my comments were helpful - I at least think they carry a little more weight than some of the previous comments - as I have dealt with this issue personally.
Your friend,
An Anonymous Guy -
- CommentAuthorAnonymousGuy
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007 edited
Hey Alison,You and the people like you are the reason that addictions like these are so hard to overcome.
I was going to edit this line before I posted and then forgot - thanks for pointing it out. I would have said, "You and the people like you are part of the reason that addictions like these are so hard to overcome." In fact - I just edited it out. I don't believe in blaming others for my actions - I only point it out, because it represents an absence of genuine help.
As for the rest of your message - I think you'll see from my response to LJ that I don't advocate she marry a porn-addict. I believe he needs to overcome this before that point - I don't believe that marriage is the method to heal him. Just how you got the impression that I believe that is beyond me.
-AG -
- CommentAuthorAnonymousGuy
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007
And, take it however you want, I am going through hell to overcome this - and until you know what that's like - I'd be very cautious.
-AG -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007
I at least think they carry a little more weight than some of the previous comments - as I have dealt with this issue personally.
Actually, from what you've posted, you haven't dealt with her problem. She has the problem of wanting a future with a guy who's a porn addict. I assume you haven't been in that position.I don't advocate she marry a porn-addict...Just how you got the impression that I believe that is beyond me.
Perhaps its because you have resorted to ad hominem in your disagreement with her, even though her main point is to advise LJ to call off the relationship rather than marry him. You went so far as to accuse her of not wanting people to be healed simply because she doesn't advise women to marry those who are sick.
Feel free to point out particular points of disagreement to discuss, but the general, overreaching name-calling isn't appropriate.
I appreciate that you are "going through hell." I sincerely hope you can put this behind you. But understand that my hope for you is utterly distinct from what I hope for LJ or other LDS women. I don't want any faithful, LDS woman to have romantic entanglements with you, with someone else who is addicted to porn, or with any man who has a serious, sinful situation--until the sin is clearly repented of and the addiction overcome. -
- CommentAuthorSilverRain
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007
do not settle for anything less than a Temple Marriage - and inform your boyfriend of this standard. This will require your friend to truly repent and overcome this,
I know from experience that this is not true. A temple marriage should require sincere repentance, but anyone can lie to get what they think they want. I've seen it time and again.
I, personally, think that it the cost is too high to marry someone addicted to anything, especially when there are so many out there who are pure and clean. And this is coming from someone who has had to go through the struggle to get over an addiction (insignificant though that addiction may have been in my bishops' eyes.) When I was struggling with it, I wouldn't have wanted anyone romantically entangled with me, either. -
- CommentAuthorfacethemusic
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007 edited
Anonymous Guy, you could NOT be more wrong about me and my knowledge about this subject.
I have very close family members and friends who've dealt with this, and have someone very close to me who's suffered from this in a way you probably haven't. You know how I know that?? Because I doubt that you have access to our website from a prison cell because your porn addiction led you to more serious sins and crimes, like his did.
Also, one of the people closest to me is the Head Nurse at a residential treatment center, and she deals with this all the time, so I'm also very familiar with the clinical and psychological side of the issue. On top of THAT my husband is a police officer, and he too is constantly dealing with perps and their addictions, whether it be porn or drugs. He takes them back and forth to rehab, back and forth to the psych wards and treatment centers.
He knows some of them personally, from outside of his job. When a local member of the church has issues with the law regarding crimes, porn and addictions, the local Bishops often ask the member's permission to bring my husband along as a police officer/priesthood holder, who can counsel them at the treatment center or jail cell, from both the legal and the spiritual side .
So you have NO idea how much I DO know about this.
I didn't actually accuse LJ of anything-- just expressed concern that she was involved with him in a way she shouldn't be. I even said that I was making a huge leap, and apologized if my leap was incorrect. My concern that LJ was sexually involved with her boyfriend was a real concern based on common sense, from their short dating period, her too soon assumption that they had a future together, and her obvious misunderstanding and dismissal of how serious her boyfriends problem really is. I WAS a young woman, I'm a YW leader now. And I talk with the girls about this stuff all time. (They talk very openly late at night at Girls' Camp) I know how they think--the ones who are on the straight and narrow and the ones who aren't.
I made frequent reference to the Savior in my response to LJ, about forgiveness and repentence... that even her boyfriend could be made clean, could repent and have a happy life, with a wife and children. So I don't know where you got the idea that I was unforgiving, would cast stones, was devoid of the Spirit.... were you trying to read my response on a computer with the contrast turned all the way down to 5, and a pair of very dark sunglasses on?
I was simply saying that right now... this guy is not someone she should be involved with or be considering as a possible future husband. Would YOU choose him for YOUR daughter's spouse? If you had a daughter dating someone with his 10 year addiction that he was STILL into, would you be happy she was dating him?
What's ironic is that you say I'm casting erroneous judgment. Nothing I said was "judgmental"-- other than the fact that what her boyfriend was doing was a sin. And it is. If you want to call that unfarily "judgmental", go ahead.
But let's look at how you judged ME:
You say I'd be one of the first to cast stones at a woman taken in adultery?
That I hold the Savior back from cleasning a leper?
That if someone were to come to me for help with a porn addiction that I would have nothing to offer but condemnation and judgment?
I HAVE friends that have committed adultery. Do you know they came to me FIRST?
They were afraid to go to the Bishop, but I'M the one who encouraged them to go.
I'm the one that sat beside them in Sacrament meeting because they were afraid that other members would SEE that they couldn't take the Sacrament. I told them not to worry about what other members think or do. If the LORD could forgive them, then so should everyone else, and I was one of them.
Holding the Savior back from healing someone?
First of all, you're putting leprosy in league with pornography and adultery. Having leprosy isn't a sin. And one doesn't GET leprosy from sinning.
Second, I've BEEN healed-- from spiritual illness and physical illness. I've seen others healed, and have watched my husband place his hands on the heads of HIS friends who are struggling with pornography addictions. And believe me, I didn't hold his hands back. You know what I did?
I sat by his wife through the blessing, gave her a hug after the blessing, then hugged him as well.
We're still great friends, get together often, and I love them dearly.
As for someone coming to me about a porn addiction? The guy who was sitting in a prison cell because his addiction led him to commit perverse sexual crimes... he admitted them to me.
I encouraged him to talk to his Bishop. He ended up going to prison because it caught up with him. I wrote to him while his was there. I sent him cards of encouragment, sent him a copy of Believing Christ, (probably THE best book explaining the Atonement and how Christ could heal him) and have KEPT contact with him since he's been out. My husband and I took him out to dinner to catch up and see how he's been doing since he's been out, to encourage him to keep going to counseling even though it's really hard for him to talk about it. Does that sound like someone who "in practice... have nothing but condemnation and judgment"?
Lastly, I was a victim of a sexual abuser as a child. Because he's a relative, I've had frequent contact with him at family reunions and such. I always just acted like nothing had happened or like I didn't remember. But I noticed, and it was known through the family that he was struggling in his own life, was unhappy in his marriage and his life in general, nor was he going to church.
I couldn't help but think that some of that was because of his past with me; that he was consumed with guilt, that maybe he hadn't confessed to a Bishop, that maybe he hadn't been forgiven by God, nor had he forgiven himself and maybe THAT was the reason he wasn't happy. He had a good job, a nice home, a nice family... there didn't seem to be any other reason for his depression.
So I decided that I needed to let him know that I'D forgiven him. So after a barbecue at a family reunion, I pulled him aside and told him, right to his face. He broke down into tears and literally sobbed, his torso lunging forward because the sobbing was so heavy. I told him that I hoped he'd talked to his Bishop, and if he hadn't that I hoped he would. He didn't say anything the whole time except for "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry" over and over again.
He started going back to church after that. (Though his life has once again gone seriously down hill.)
From the experiences in my life, and the experiences I've had with family and friends who HAVE been addicted to porn, and who HAVE committed adultery, and who HAVE committed sexual crimes against me, and others, I DO know what I'm talking about. I'm very familiar with their struggles and their pain. They've cried on my shoulder.
So you can say what you want Anonymous... you can assume what you want about me and what I'd do in any given situation. But I know it isn't true. I know, because I've been there, and I know how I responded. And I'll feel very confidant in front of my God and my Savior when they ask me about these things. Will you? -
Anonymous Guy,
For what it's worth, I don't think people here are trying to be self-righteous. They are deeply concerned about LJ, as you are, too. I think we will all be able to help her more if we focus on her and her situation and not on trying to assess others' hearts. You know addictions are tricky and as women, I think we are concerned about a sister getting into a situation that may be more than she bargained for. I will speak for myself, though, and say that such concern is not meant to be something to undermine you or your sincere efforts to overcome this. I wish you the best.
Honestly, AG, I'm not convinced that porn-viewing is an "addiction"
Hm. Haven't our leaders made it clear what an insidious addiction it is? (See this page for some quotes.) I think I remember hearing about studies that have shown the change in brain chemistry that mimics drugs (could be mistaken there). I think we ought not dismiss porn addiction as a reality here, because I don't think we would see such trouble with it and such repeated counsel about it if it weren't really, really tough to overcome. And realizing that fact, IMO, can help LJ realize how serious the situation is, and to approach her decision very, very carefully. -
- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 25th 2007
I wouldn't characterize my statement as a dismissal and I think you left off a crucial part of the sentence. I said:Honestly, AG, I'm not convinced that porn-viewing is an "addiction" and, if it is, I think we've expanded the term to include almost anything that we shouldn't do, but find hard to give up.
Nowadays, most everything is a disease (measles, cancer, and obesity) and everything else is an addiction (drugs, sex, and porn). It's not a bad choice or bad behavior. You may recall that Clinton wasn't really an adulterer, he was a "sex addict." I'm pretty sure brain chemistry changes during marital, monogamous sex, too. Mine does. So? The terms have become almost meaningless and I don't think it has helped us overcome or even cope better. Where ever the truth lies, I think the result of this labeling or expanding of definitions over the past decades has been that we are (or believe we are) powerless to change or move forward. -
Alison, I think there are situations where addiction is a copout label but many times it's not. In fact, I think it's healthy more often than not to recognize something as an addiction if someone will actually use that to get real help, not just to say, "Oh, I'll just do better tomorrow." Porn is that kind of potential addiction that only professional and spiritual help and a LOT of effort will change, in spite of all the desire in the world to do so, some addictions can't be tackled simply by undoing the choices that were once made.
The whole powerlessness culture is an important one to remember, though, so I understand why you are bringing that up. I'm just not sure it's something that is so far from the truth with severe porn addictions. People ARE powerless to change on their own at a certain point, because they have lost agency and are in Satan's grasp/chains. That's sobering, scary stuff.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir so I guess I think we probably don't need to be having this little interchange, though.... ;) -
BTW, Alison, I'm sorry for misrepresenting what you said. Hope we are OK. :)
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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeMay 26th 2007
No problem, Michelle, of course.
I'm not convinced that most porn addicts cannot change without professional help. I don't care at all if people choose to get professional help, but the idea of helplessness in the face of sin doesn't sit well with me.
If someone is addicted to pain killers, what happens if they have no access to them? Do they die? If the power goes out, do all the neighborhood porn addicts rush into the streets screaming and clawing themselves bloody?
As I've posted before, the husband of a friend began with mild web porn, more serious web porn, porn "addiction," and eventually was busted when he propositioned a police decoy over the internet for sex. We're talking returned missionary, married in the temple, with multiple kids. He spent six months in jail, excommunicated, and is now on the sex offender registry.
The important part in this context, is to tell you what he's been doing since to get his life back. The first thing he did was to get rid of the internet. Completely. Totally. And every other porn access point that was available to him. Everything he does now is an open book and public. His money, his cell phone logs, and he never goes anywhere alone. And on and on.
Is this all annoying? Inconvenient? Embarrassing? A hassle? Yea, sure it is. It really puts up a barrier to his freedom and to his access to things in the digital age--even some good things. It has made aspects of his work very difficult. But to him, it is worth it to save his family, his marriage, and himself.
Not to pick on AnonymousGuy, but while he's "going through hell to overcome" porn addiction, he's still surfing the web. Now maybe he's doing it with his mom or his bishop standing behind him—or maybe he has a filter on and a log that he can't hack and that someone else is monitoring. If so, great. But if I was a "porn addict" and I spent any amount of time with internet access--knowing that feeding my addiction was about .05 seconds and two mouse clicks away, I wouldn't be overcoming the addiction anytime soon.
Do we send coke addicts to crack houses to sober up? Do we sign up those with the "disease of obesity" as employees at Baskin Robbins? Do we ask pedophiles to babysit?
It sure seems that our treatment mode lacks some common sense. -
Not to pick on AnonymousGuy, but while he's "going through hell to overcome" porn addiction, he's still surfing the web. Now maybe he's doing it with his mom or his bishop standing behind him—or maybe he has a filter on and a log that he can't hack and that someone else is monitoring. If so, great. But if I was a "porn addict" and I spent any amount of time with internet access--knowing that feeding my addiction was about .05 seconds and two mouse clicks away, I wouldn't be overcoming the addiction anytime soon.
Aha. The light goes on. I get it and now all your comments are making more sense. You're smart, ya know that? -
I realize that this thread is a few weeks old (sorry, I'm just getting through some of the older stuff), but I just had to give my opinion on this.
Someone I am very close to has an addiction (habit??) to porn. It has caused unimaginable stress in his own and his family's lives (including his extended family). He also allowed himself to spend money he didn't really have on his habit, which nearly drove his family to bankruptcy in addition to dealing with the emotions of all of it.
He was first exposed to porn as a very young boy (10-11). Through his growing years, he occasionally indulged in it through magazines and movies (this was in the days before the internet was widely available). He confessed this to his bishop before serving a mission, thought he had overcome it, and went on his mission.
It wasn't long after he returned home that his habit started again, this time via internet pornography. Like I said, he put a lot of charges on credit cards through the years and nearly ended up bankrupting his family (would have if not for the help of some of those close to him) over it.
He married in the temple (I'm certain he had to lie to his leaders to do this, in hindsight, although neither we - nor his wife - knew it at the time). Eventually, a few years and a few children later, he got caught in a very deep and expensive problem. He was able to hide it for quite a long time before it all came to light.
His dear wife has stood by him, although few of us would fault her for leaving. Her husband betrayed her trust and ruined their credit. They are in counseling now and will be for a very long time. He also attends a support group for men with sex addictions, run through LDS Family Services. That has been a great help to him. He has very strict limits on what he can do now (no internet, accounting for his time, etc.) in order to keep with his treatment plan. It is our hope as his family and friends that he, with his wife's help, will be able to overcome this at some point in his life. But it is now something he has struggled with for many many years and is not in the least an easy thing to remedy.
My sister and I once went to a conference at BYU where Victor Klein spoke about this subject. He mentioned a case in which he had counseled with a man. He offered this man $20,000 (I think that's the correct amount) if he could go one year without viewing porn. Through counseling and support, he made it for more than 360 days, and then relapsed. To me, that's a pretty powerful habit.
My advice to anyone dating a porn addict would be to consider very prayerfully what you are doing. I am thrilled that in the case I am close to, the wife decided to stay with the husband - but if she would have known about it before they married I could not have faulted her one bit for running the other way as fast as she could. Pornography is not a victimless thing. People are affected in ways that you might not foresee. It would take a pretty powerful manifestation of the spirit for me to stay with someone who I was only dating if I were aware of this problem. A marriage, I think, is different. If this comes to light at that point (especially if there are now children in the picture) I would hope that most women would try to keep the relationship together and help the husband recover. That's just my experience.
BTW, in my case, this problem was discovered about 4-5 years ago and it is still a day-to-day struggle. Of course I don't ask about the progress every day, but I do know that he still attends the support group and still advises everyone he sees not to even '"take a peek", lest you find yourself in deep. -
- CommentAuthorSharilee10
- CommentTimeJun 13th 2007 edited
Mark Kastlemann has some excellent books out on this topic as well. Drug of the New Millenium is very informative and interesting. -
To LJ and Tracey,
First of all LJ, I feel your pain. When I started dating my boyfriend, he told me right away that he had been seeing the bishop for the past little while and was going through the repentance process. Things seemed to be going well and I even talked to his bishop and we were encouraged to continue as we were. I didn’t know the details but he was honest and, like you described your boyfriend, I could tell that he was a “good LDS guy” in every way that I could see. The fact that he had gone to the bishop and had admitted what he had done said a lot to me. After we had been dating for about 2 months I decided that it might be time to find out more details and to see how he was doing. I found out that he had a pornography problem for a couple of years before his mission, and that it had begun to be a problem again after he got home. He said since he’d been to the bishop he’d felt so strong and determined and had no slips, although the temptation was still there. It really seemed like he was on the way to improvement.
I wish I could give you an answer, but instead I'll just give you my story and suggest that you (with the help of Heavenly Father) come to a solution that will work for you. We continued to date because, just like you, I believe that everyone deserves a chance to be happy if they are constantly striving to be worthy of that happiness. He really seemed to be trying, and my rationale was: If he wasn't sinning anymore, and he had repented and his bishop told him that he was worthy to go to the temple again, who was I to tell him that it wasn't good enough or to judge him? So we continued to date, but eventually he slipped up – more than once. At this point, we had been together for about 5 months and had actually started to make plans for a wedding (he had taken me to pick out a ring and everything). I was devastated. It was like everything we planned was suddenly yanked from us. And I also worried for him. By this point I was emotionally involved and loved him and didn’t like the fact that he was putting himself in a situation where he was going to be denied blessings. It was just horrible in every way.
Tracy - Here is where I have a bit of a problem with your advice. I live by the law of chastity, dress modestly, respect my body and myself, and eventually want to marry a worthy priesthood holder in the temple. My boyfriend and I have not been immoral or "crossed the line". However, I did stay with him when I found out about his slip ups. I found it very offensive that you would say that “a young woman who has kept herself morally clean and has no feelings of shame, would not continue to date a young man once she found out that he had such a horrible and wanton addiction”. There are many reasons why I girl might stay with someone who she knows is struggling with this. Some reasons may be better than others, but it’s unfair for you to judge so harshly. Have you been in this situation yourself? When you get to know someone (even if it is only for a few months) and you start to care about them, you learn to separate the person from the problem. Ever heard of “hate the sin, not the sinner”? You can be with that person and think “they have a horrible, destructive, filthy habit”, but you also can see their good qualities (something I think we should all be striving to do as members of the church).
Yes, repentance does mean not committing the sin again, but I believe that if you have made a major life change (i.e., going from being addicted to pornography without remorse to having minor slip ups here and there with decreasing severity and talking to the bishop right away and continually repenting – repentance is an ongoing process!) the Lord still recognizes your efforts. His bishop also agreed, and he was actually encouraged to go to the temple more regularly to gain more strength which he did. Who can look at a guy who is seeking help, talking to the bishop, receiving priesthood blessings, reading the scriptures and MOST IMPORTANTLY who has been deemed worthy to enter the Lord’s house by his bishop…who can look at this guy and NOT say that he is a “good LDS guy”? What person with any amount of love in their heart can watch someone they care about go through all of this can look at him and say “Yeah he’s trying, but I could find someone else without the baggage”. I really hope with all of my heart that someone doesn’t look at me, or you, or any of your children that way one day, because believe me, we ALL have baggage, and I would want someone to look at me for me, and my efforts, and not judge me solely on the basis of what I have done wrong in my life.
The fact that I kept dating him didn’t mean that I was “brushing it off”. I researched every talk that I would find on the subject and shared them with him. We talked about how it was destructive and the different ways that pornography can ruin a relationship. We started reading scriptures together and just trying to work through it. We both realized how bad it was, but sin and Satan are real, and so even though he knew it was bad and wanted to stop, the slips kept happening. I would ask him periodically and he would always tell me. I know you said that chances are they are lying to you when they admit their slips, but he would give me details of the severity of the slip, how many days, what he was thinking and what had triggered it etc. Nothing was sugar coated, so if he was lying he sure chose to include a lot in his selective truth. Also, I don’t think you can really assume that someone is lying, especially someone you’re in a relationship with. There is potential for everyone to lie. I’ve heard of “worthy” couples who have been married in the temple, and 10 years down the road the guy admits that he’s been looking at pornography his whole life. No one really ever knows. You just have to trust the person, listen to the spirit, and hope for the best.
All that being said, fast forward to where I am right now, 9 months down the road – the reason why I am searching this subject online and writing this lengthy comment. It has finally gotten the best of us – No, we didn’t break the law of chastity. I mean the problem itself has started to take its toll. There have been more slip-ups and an increased severity, resulting in less of a desire to try, and that is what finally did it. When I could see a genuine effort to improve, I could deal with it. I would pray every night to have the faith in repentance that was needed in order to forgive him of the past, and to be able to withstand the effects of the sin. I would pray for him to have the strength to avoid temptation, and to continue improving. That was the key: CONTINUE improving. Improvement sometimes takes a long time, but we were getting there inch by inch. We decided to put of all of the wedding plans and just focus on dealing with the problem, and that’s what he was doing. But when he started to express a lack of desire to change, and started to get comfortable back in his old ways, THAT is what I couldn’t take. THAT is when it becomes important to remind yourself of your self worth, because being in a relationship with someone who wants to sin is not respecting myself.
LJ, I don’t know your exact situation, and whether or not you are still together with this boy, but here is what I would tell you. Go in and talk to his bishop together. Ask him his advice. He knows the severity of the situation and whether or not this guy should be dating right now. Talk to your boyfriend about the problem regularly. Do things to strengthen yourself so that you’ll be able to deal with whatever happens. Pray, and also become informed. Learn how destructive this sin is so that you don’t downplay it to him. Monitor the situation and watch your behavior – it is possible that he may have different ideas about morality than you because of what he’s been exposed to, so remind him of the church standards and their importance and let him know where you stand just in case. Then, just wait. Time will tell whether or not this is a genuine change and what should be done. I would not suggest forgetting about him completely, but I also would really urge you NOT to start planning to get married. I am so glad that I waited it out and that we didn’t just say “things are going alright, let’s get married”, because this problem does take time, and getting married will not solve it.
I have to tell you that unfortunately, there is not always a happy ending in these situations, but I have to believe that when the Saviour suffered the pain and temptation of even the worst of our sins, this was one of them so we (and those we love) are not alone. No sin is unforgivable, and no person is a lost cause. I am still not exactly sure what the future will hold for the boy that I mentioned and myself. Perhaps now is just not the right time, but maybe the relationship that we started to build now will eventually continue someday when he has REALLY dealt with the problem. Until then, I need to respect myself. You do the same.
Tracy, I am not trying to attack your comments, but please watch what you say. This is such a sensitive topic for a lot of girls and woman. To even suggest that these women are immoral or lack self-worth does not help. We just do the best we can in this life and each situation needs to be dealt with on an individual basis. Nothing is cut and dry, black and white with one simple solution. As sisters we need to support and love one another, not point fingers and suggest things that can make people feel worse. I doubt that that was intentional on your part, but PLEASE watch your words more carefully because they can hurt.
Best of luck to everyone who is struggling with this..
T -
T, thanks for your honesty and I wish you the best as you get through this situation.
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- CommentAuthorAlison Moore Smith
- CommentTimeJun 19th 2007
tc, welcome. It is so good to have such a thoughtful, personal perspective represented. I know you were looking for a specific topic, but I do hope you join us again. You have brought such a good balance of mercy and forgiveness with common sense and intelligent analysis. I would say one of the great weaknesses of women is that we often let our emotions utterly take over our brains. You are an exception and that it admirable. -
T., thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with what you have said. This is not a cut-and-dried situation that can have generalized answers that will always work for everyone. I think you made a wise choice. The fact that you are aware that problems will not go away after marriage is also sooo critical. With the friends I have watched go through this, that point has been etched in my brain.
I think your example also illustrates that there are different degrees of this problem. There are men who lose temple privileges and such because of where they are and how severe things are. Not all porn problems are going to require forfeiture of temple privileges, etc., which I think is sometimes a misconception about this problem. Again, with at least one situation we are aware of, the husband never lost temple privileges or opportunities to serve. This isn't a problem that always goes away in an instant. It's often a process, and the key is which direction the process is going -- forward or backward. And hearing now another example of a man who struggled, and was still deemed worthy because of his heart and desires was interesting to me (which is what happened to one of our friends).
Best to you, T. -
- CommentAuthorSharilee10
- CommentTimeJun 19th 2007
I have not read this thread in its entirety. The one thing I would add is to keep in mind the effect that pornography has on the participant's view of reality and how that could potentially affect the women he dates. I have been close to a number of women who were the spouses of men with pornography addictions to varying degrees and I, personally, would never even consider continuing a dating relationship with someone who had that particular issue. It just is one of those issues that I would never want to deal with. Most of the situations I have seen have not ended happily. That said, there is one man I know who suffered with this addiction, went through repentance and recovery and has done a great deal of good in helping other people. So . . . it can be done.
I just know that for me I would not choose to continue a relationship if I knew about it (and, yes, I say this from experience and I know how hard and heart breaking it is to find out after you have already begun to have feelings for someone).
Just my thoughts. Be very aware of what you may be choosing and the impact it could have on you, your future and the future of your children. Research shows that pornography literally alters the brain. Men addicted to pornography do not have an accurate view of women, and it often takes a very devastating toll on the women and daughters.
Best of luck to everyone . . . -
Just my thoughts. Be very aware of what you may be choosing and the impact it could have on you, your future and the future of your children. Research shows that pornography literally alters the brain. Men addicted to pornography do not have an accurate view of women, and it often takes a very devastating toll on the women and daughters.
This is a key reason why marriage doesn't change anything. The problem is not a need for sex, it's a distorted view of women and sex, and having the need filled in ways that only perpetuate the wrong view and perspective and even brain chemistry/connections. -
One more thing...one of the situations I know about it ended in a nightmare. I think she married him thinking she could fix him, that he could/would change. I wouldn't recommend marrying someone unless it really is in the past, because like T experienced, so often it rears its ugly head and breaks hearts. And I'd hate to see a guy try really hard to get the girl and then stop caring once they get married. We are always on our bester behavior in courtship, right?
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